Avidyne Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Avidyne General > IFD 5 Series & IFD 4 Series Touch Screen GPS/NAV/COM
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Busted IFR Checkride with IFD550
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Busted IFR Checkride with IFD550

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
frontrangeflyer View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2018
Location: Boulder, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frontrangeflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Busted IFR Checkride with IFD550
    Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 10:55pm
I just failed my IFR checkride due to an error operating my IFD550.

Here's what happened:

1. I had just completed holding at a VOR with the Avidyne IFD550 in VLOC mode.

2. I then executed a VOR-A approach with the IFD550 still in VLOC mode (no approach selected) as the Examiner wanted me to fly the approach manually (raw data, as he calls it). No problem so far.

3. The Examiner then wanted me to fly an RNAV GPS approach, which I selected and ACTIVATED in the IFD550. He then immediately failed one my primary flight displays (I have a backup), which took my attention away from the IFD550.

4. ATC cleared me for the RNAV GPS approach and asked to maintain 8,500 feet until established, afterward I could descend to 7,800 feet.

5. I failed the checkride because I started to descend and the IFD550 was not in GPS mode, so the approach was not truly "active," even though I had pressed the "activate" key.

What's the "best practice" for preventing this from ever happening on a checkride?

Thanks for your help!

Buck




Buck Rizvi
1973 Piper Cherokee Six 300
KBDU
Back to Top
Gring View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Location: Kingston, NY
Status: Offline
Points: 726
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 6:42am
This is a great lesson on how single pilot IFR is one of the most difficult and potentially risky flight operations with high task saturation.  All this technology is great, however, it has made flying more complex with the need for proficiency, and a thorough understanding of how the technology works is a must.  

It sounds like he failed you because you were never established on the approach since you were not navigating to anything anymore. Once you began your descent, you busted ATCs instruction.  Your problem likely started at the missed approach on the VOR where you didn’t switch back to GPS mode once you were cleaned up and climbing out on the missed.

You may want to create a simple approach checklist that checks some basic things, like the avionics setttings, airframe configuration, and power setting.  I use one and I’m an ATP rated pilot because, I’ve made every mistake and omission a pilot could make.  I have it pasted on my panel so I’m not fumbling with stuff in IMC. 

Make no mistake, flying practice approaches in succession like we do for currency/proficiency is hard because a lot is happening in a short amount of time and distance.  In real IFR flying it doesn’t usually happen like that, except when it does, and then you have to bring your ‘A’ game because it can go sideways very quickly.


Edited by Gring - 21 Jun 2018 at 6:48am
Back to Top
paulr View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 548
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote paulr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 8:10am
I really like this suggestion, going. Any chance you'd be willing to share the checklist you use?
Back to Top
frontrangeflyer View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2018
Location: Boulder, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frontrangeflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 1:39pm
Hi Gring,

Thanks for your thoughtful and helpful response. I'll definitely add the approach checklist.

I'm also hopping on a call today with Gary Reeves (I purchased his Avidyne IFD Mastery Course) and will post his tips to this thread.

Thanks again!

Buck

Buck Rizvi
1973 Piper Cherokee Six 300
KBDU
Back to Top
Gring View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Location: Kingston, NY
Status: Offline
Points: 726
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 4:26pm
Buck, also, here is a suggestion when doing practice approaches in succession or on an IFR checkride. Tell ATC you need some time. Ask for vectors on the missed approach because you need some time to program you avionics. It's all acceptable, even on a checkride where you are the PIC. I did 6 approaches the other day in IMC to minimums and in some cases didn't even see the runway. Every missed I asked for vectors to give me some time to breath and slow things down.
Back to Top
frontrangeflyer View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2018
Location: Boulder, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frontrangeflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 5:48pm
Great advice.  Thanks, Gring!

I actually asked ATC for a missed and vectors (with a long downwind) to try again. I guess I was too fixated with the PFD failure the Examiner introduced on the approach to debug and fix the real problem (not in GPS mode). Ugh!

Buck

Buck Rizvi
1973 Piper Cherokee Six 300
KBDU
Back to Top
Kentucky Captain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Location: KBRY
Status: Offline
Points: 234
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentucky Captain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Gring Gring wrote:

Buck, also, here is a suggestion when doing practice approaches in succession or on an IFR checkride. Tell ATC you need some time. Ask for vectors on the missed approach because you need some time to program you avionics. It's all acceptable, even on a checkride where you are the PIC. I did 6 approaches the other day in IMC to minimums and in some cases didn't even see the runway. Every missed I asked for vectors to give me some time to breath and slow things down.


That's great advice.  As a retired radar controller, I would much rather give you a few vectors for time as opposed to you getting to the base turn and then deciding you need more time.  The radar controller has to figure out where everyone is going to fit into the sequence and it really sucks when somebody blows up your plan right as you are about to clear them for the approach.

Furthermore, when I shoot practice approaches myself, I make it a point to tell the controller that I would like a little longer final so I have time to get established on the approach instead of getting turned final right on top of the FAF.  It seems that fewer controllers are pilots now and a lot of them have never been in the cockpit of a GA airplane.  Airports like where I worked (KSDF) have a huge number of heavy aircraft (UPS main hub) and that is how some of the newer controllers treat everyone.  When I was training controllers, I had to remind them that most GA aircraft were single pilot operations and their CRM consisted of just them.
Woo Hoo!!!
Back to Top
Gring View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Location: Kingston, NY
Status: Offline
Points: 726
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Kentucky Captain Kentucky Captain wrote:

Furthermore, when I shoot practice approaches myself, I make it a point to tell the controller that I would like a little longer final so I have time to get established on the approach instead of getting turned final right on top of the FAF.  It seems that fewer controllers are pilots now and a lot of them have never been in the cockpit of a GA airplane.  Airports like where I worked (KSDF) have a huge number of heavy aircraft (UPS main hub) and that is how some of the newer controllers treat everyone.  When I was training controllers, I had to remind them that most GA aircraft were single pilot operations and their CRM consisted of just them.


That is a great point. On one of my approaches the other day I got turned in to the FAF too close and missed the GPS calculation for LPV (which I needed for the lower minimums) and had to ask to be vectored around again. I had a student pilot with me and knew it was too close, but I wanted to show him what happens and that it isn't a big deal as long as you recognize it and take action.
Back to Top
Kentucky Captain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Location: KBRY
Status: Offline
Points: 234
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentucky Captain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by Gring Gring wrote:


That is a great point. On one of my approaches the other day I got turned in to the FAF too close and missed the GPS calculation for LPV (which I needed for the lower minimums) and had to ask to be vectored around again. I had a student pilot with me and knew it was too close, but I wanted to show him what happens and that it isn't a big deal as long as you recognize it and take action.


Interesting.  I've never been turned on close in for an LPV approach to be able to see that.  Does the glide slope just go missing completely in that case?  I've gotten to the point that if I get a base turn too early, I'll ask at that time if we can extend a little more.  The early turn probably means that the controller has someone behind with minimal spacing and he is trying to buy a little room.  Either that or he is just not good at his job.  I would much rather extend a little downwind to follow someone else as opposed to turning early and trying to play catch up and probably not have a stabilized approach.  I don't want to run another controller's sequence but I'm in that cockpit and would really like a favorable outcome.

In that vein,  when at all possible, I ask for the GPS approach and ask if I can go directly to the IAF.  That way, I don't have to worry about the controller running me through the final.  Most controllers like GPS approaches too.  Instead of having to watch and get the base, final intercept, and clearance at specified times, traffic permitting he can have you cross the IAF at the intercept altitude and clear you for the approach all in one transmission without having to continually watch you for the turns.  I have a friend that flies into RYY a lot and he says they always run him through the final on the ILS there.  I told him to request the GPS approach and to go directly to the IAF and see how that works out.  He said, "but they are always advertising the ILS".  The final for the GPS and ILS are the same and the controller will not care and in fact, may like it since he doesn't have to worry about the turn on.  The next time he flew into there he did request the GPS and direct to the IAF.  Was cleared for the approach, went straight to the IAF, no missed turn on.
Woo Hoo!!!
Back to Top
frontrangeflyer View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2018
Location: Boulder, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frontrangeflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 6:43pm
Quick update:

I passed my Instrument Checkride on the retake. Whew!

This time, I ALMOST got tripped up on a RNAV GPS (LNAV) approach.

Not because I was in VLOC mode (I learned my lesson).

But because I was being vectored to the FAF and it had been suggested to me by an Avidyne expert/trainer that I should never select "Vectors" when activating a GPS approach, but rather load a full approach (e.g. IAF) and manually activate the leg ATC puts me on when being vectored.

This would have been fine, but I wound up with a lot of clutter on my IFD550 screen (including inactive legs and a hold) that had me almost try to intercept something other than the final approach course after ATC told me "turn to 240 and maintain 8,500 until established on the final approach course."

My turn to 240 had me first approaching a white line that I mistook for the final approach course. Thank goodness ATC reminded me to turn to 240 and intercept the final approach course. I took a quick look at the geo-referenced plate on my iPad, realized my mistake, and intercepted the correct magenta course line.

Just a quick note that choosing the full approach when being Vectored could lead to problems because of the clutter.

Buck




Buck Rizvi
1973 Piper Cherokee Six 300
KBDU
Back to Top
oskrypuch View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Location: CYFD
Status: Offline
Points: 3059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 9:56pm
With an IFD I see nothing wrong with selecting VECTORS, when that is what you are expecting. If the situation changes, it is very quick to reselect the approach with a specific IAF. The same goes for any other cleared or anticipated flight plan change. Personally I prefer to have on screen what I expect to be flying.

It is a little different with a GNS, where the interface is slow and clumsy, and setting vectors will over declutter the screen.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 24 Jun 2018 at 9:57pm
Back to Top
Ibraham View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 21 May 2016
Location: KHWO
Status: Offline
Points: 357
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ibraham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 1:20pm
Congratulations!!
Back to Top
frontrangeflyer View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2018
Location: Boulder, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frontrangeflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

With an IFD I see nothing wrong with selecting VECTORS, when that is what you are expecting. If the situation changes, it is very quick to reselect the approach with a specific IAF. The same goes for any other cleared or anticipated flight plan change. Personally I prefer to have on screen what I expect to be flying.

* Orest


My Examiner made a similar comment. I'll use Vectors mode on my next approach if I'm getting Vectors from ATC and see if everything works as planned.

Previously, I tried the Vectors mode on an LPV approach. ATC turned me onto the final approach course over 1,500 feet too high. I never got any guidance from my IFD550 and had to go missed.


 



Buck Rizvi
1973 Piper Cherokee Six 300
KBDU
Back to Top
Kentucky Captain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Location: KBRY
Status: Offline
Points: 234
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentucky Captain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by frontrangeflyer frontrangeflyer wrote:

Quick update:

I passed my Instrument Checkride on the retake. Whew!

This time, I ALMOST got tripped up on a RNAV GPS (LNAV) approach.

Not because I was in VLOC mode (I learned my lesson).

But because I was being vectored to the FAF and it had been suggested to me by an Avidyne expert/trainer that I should never select "Vectors" when activating a GPS approach, but rather load a full approach (e.g. IAF) and manually activate the leg ATC puts me on when being vectored.

This would have been fine, but I wound up with a lot of clutter on my IFD550 screen (including inactive legs and a hold) that had me almost try to intercept something other than the final approach course after ATC told me "turn to 240 and maintain 8,500 until established on the final approach course."

My turn to 240 had me first approaching a white line that I mistook for the final approach course. Thank goodness ATC reminded me to turn to 240 and intercept the final approach course. I took a quick look at the geo-referenced plate on my iPad, realized my mistake, and intercepted the correct magenta course line.

Just a quick note that choosing the full approach when being Vectored could lead to problems because of the clutter.

Buck





Congratulations.

I had a similar problem.  After seeing some of the comments in this forum, I set up an ILS to fly the entire approach, knowing that I was going to get vectors to final.  I was doing this one with the autopilot.  When the vector came I tried to adjust the approach and ended up having to abandon the approach when it tried to turn me away from the final repeatedly.  Finally gave up, disengaged the autopilot and flew VFR to the airport.  I'm not sure what I did wrong but it the airplane was having no part of that ILS at all.  Like trying to get a lobster in the pot.
Woo Hoo!!!
Back to Top
Gring View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Location: Kingston, NY
Status: Offline
Points: 726
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 5:31pm
I think the best way to utilize the FMS function of the IFD is using the following on all approaches:

1) Select the approach you want to fly with the IAF you want, you think you'll get, or is the closest to you. This will give you all the intermediate approach fixes in case ATC gives you a Direct-To.
2) Activate the approach if you haven't activated it by going direct to a waypoint assigned by ATC. This may be an IAF, or IF.
3) If you are given vectors simply activate the FAF leg. You can then use you heading bug to fly the assigned vector with you HSI or CDI set to the final approach course. If flying with an autopilot you'll be in HDG mode with APPR selected (most king, century, STEC, Garmin, or DFC90 autopilots).
Back to Top
Bob H View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2018
Location: NH - KMHT
Status: Offline
Points: 290
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by frontrangeflyer frontrangeflyer wrote:

Quick update:
I was being vectored to the FAF and it had been suggested to me by an Avidyne expert/trainer that I should never select "Vectors" when activating a GPS approach, but rather load a full approach (e.g. IAF) and manually activate the leg ATC puts me on when being vectored.
This would have been fine, but I wound up with a lot of clutter on my IFD550 screen (including inactive legs and a hold) that had me almost try to intercept something other than the final approach course after ATC told me "turn to 240 and maintain 8,500 until established on the final approach course."
CONGRATS!
Almost did the same thing on my very first ILS with the IFD with an instructor in the right seat.  Vectors to final and I thought I was about to be vectored through the final when I realized it was a dogleg prior to the final course.  I also didn't select "vectors" due to the opinion of others.  I now agree with Orest; nothing wrong with selecting vectors.  Gets rid of the clutter and avoids having to activate the correct leg for intercept.
Bob
Back to Top
teeth6 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 741
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 7:18am
That is what I do as well.  It is easy to activate the final leg if you get VTF plus all the intermediate fixes are there to see.  I guess it is all what you are used to.   This is the way I did it in my G***** days and it still works well with the IFDs.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.092 seconds.