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Flight plan sequence disappear when approach is lo

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pat@werigi.com View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pat@werigi.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Flight plan sequence disappear when approach is lo
    Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 12:01pm
2007 Cirrus w/ Avidyne
This weekend I flew from KPTK to KCVX, rte was KPTK MBS KCVX. The entire route showed up on both the IFD's and the Avidyne MFD. Enroute - before MBS, I loaded the RNAV 27 approach - victors (not activated, just loaded) and the sequence from MBS to KCVX disappeared. I deleted the approach and the sequence came back. Once I passed MBS I loaded the approch and the sequence stayed. I've never seen this before??? I tried this at home on my simulator and the sequence stayed. I just tried it on another computer the the sequence disappeared (both with vectors and IAF.)

I should be able to load an approach in a flight plan prior to the final leg and see the entire flt plan????

Pat




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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 1:55pm
The issue is that you have not told the IFD how you will be transitioning to the approach, from the last enroute waypoint. As such, it inserts a discontinuity, or "gap", in the flight plan, and will warn you if you start approaching that gap, or break in the flightplan.

If you will be transitioning to the loaded IAF, all you need to do is close the discontinuity by deleting the gap. Scroll to it on the FMS page, push CLR, and all will be joined up again.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 29 Oct 2015 at 1:56pm
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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 1:59pm
... and I just noticed you had selected a vectors-to-final transition.

In that case, you can't close the gap, as there is no routing from the waypoint to the approach. If you are not being vectored and on a HDG by the time you reach the last enroute waypoint, then just choose direct the airport to continue in, until you get vectors.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 29 Oct 2015 at 2:00pm
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pat@werigi.com View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pat@werigi.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 3:08pm
Thank you Orest,

I just tried it on my simulator and it worked. I do not understand why this is an issue since I did not activate the approach just loaded it.

Pat

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 8:24pm
You have to leave limited G* thinking behind.

With the IFD540 you create a flightplan, that includes not just the enroute, but also the departure, arrival and approach, and then even another airport with its own arrival and approach. All is listed in the FMS flightplan. You then fly it.

All activating an approach does, is set you DCT to the IAF. The approach will already be, in sequence, in the flightplan. 

The one exception to that, is if you are DCT the airport, and add an approach. The approach will be added after the airport, with the airport waypoint duplicated. You can't place the approach before the airport, as you are headed to it. Once you activate that added approach, you will be switched to headed to the IAP, with the duplicated airport waypoint in sequence.

Play around with it in the simulator.
 
* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 29 Oct 2015 at 8:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M20J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2015 at 7:01pm
I came across this as well the other day, and I feel that this behaviour should be considered a bug. We should be able to load an approach and not have it affect our route in any way. Until such time as we receive a clearance to do something different (i.e. direct the IAF, or vectors etc) our IFR clearance is to the airport and we should receive guidance including turn prediction to get there withought having to go back into our flight plan and inserting the destination again before the approach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2015 at 9:26pm
You never have to insert the destination again "manually". If you are direct destination, then it will leave you direct destination, and add the approach and another instance of the destination at the end of the route. If you are not direct the destination, then it will insert the approach in sequence in the flight plan. There will be a discontinuity if you have not specified how you are to transition from the enroute to approach segment. You can close the discontinuity, or otherwise define how you will transition to the approach. If you don't want the approach listed in the flight plan yet, then you can delete it, or not add it in yet.

It is just a different design than you are used to. FWIW, that is how it is handled in the Big Boy boxes. Either the approach is part of the flight plan, or it isn't. It is different, but once you get your head around it, it really is a better way to do this.

* Orest




Edited by oskrypuch - 15 Nov 2015 at 9:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M20J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2015 at 12:36am
Yes I agree that it works when you are direct destination, but when you aren't, the LSK to close the gap connects the last waypoint before destination with the IAF, which is generally not what you want - unless you receive a clearance to do so. The way I was taught IFR, I try to set as much up as possible while still in the enroute phase, so that I'm not scrambling at the last minute when things get busy. So I would like to load the approach ahead of time, but still navigate my route as cleared, and not have to manually close a gap. If the LSK, gave you the option to close the gap either by connecting to destination or the IAF, I think that would be good.

Maybe I see things differently, I'm a terminal (approach) controller, so I think in terms of ifr clearances and what I expect pilots to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2015 at 7:38am
It is unlikely that you would clear someone to a non IAF/IF waypoint on an approach, unless you are vectoring. Selecting an approach will let you specify each of the IAF and IF waypoints as the entry points. So you could wait until you have a clearance, or are fairly sure of what you will get, and put it in and go.

Usually you will see an LSK to either activate approach, or close the gap in a meaningful way. You can also select any of the waypoints on the approach, activate that segment or go DCT.

I guess you are looking for the *armin method of selecting an approach, but not actually putting it into your flightplan, and then later pushing activate, that just isn't there. Although, that method also assumes that you know for sure which entry point you will be cleared.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 16 Nov 2015 at 7:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2015 at 7:04pm

I think he is talking about the IFR clearance limit, which is usually the destination airport long before an approach is selected. But as I understand it, once ATC tells me "expect ILS 15L" or whatever, then if I go lost-comm the ILS is what they expect me to do. The only question is if they expect me to fly over the airport first and then fly outbound to conduct the ILS. Or if they just expect me to intercept the ILS and fly it right in.

David

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