Procedure turns ad course reversals

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   Hi guys,  Just wanted to get some feedback on the Avidyne philosophy of including the procedure turn and course reversals associated with approach procedures.
As I approach the ILS 33 to KRME from the west, I would need to fly the course reversal if not being vectored.  To do that, its not as simple as I'd like.  First, its not depicted at all, I have to create it.  Second, when I create a hold at the UCA VOR, the 540 assumes the inbound leg will be the direct leg to the VOR versus the actual inbound leg depicted on the approach chart.

Now granted, we don't have to fly the full procedure very often, but has any discussion been given to providing a quick way to show the depicted PT or course reversal and insert it into the flight plan?  Perhaps a second prompt; when you select the hold at UCA, you could also have a Hold at UCA as Depicted selection.

Any thoughts?

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cavu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2015 Location: KRME Status: Offline Points: 152	Post Options Post Reply Quote cavu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Procedure turns ad course reversals Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 9:05pm
	Hi guys, Just wanted to get some feedback on the Avidyne philosophy of including the procedure turn and course reversals associated with approach procedures. As I approach the ILS 33 to KRME from the west, I would need to fly the course reversal if not being vectored. To do that, its not as simple as I'd like. First, its not depicted at all, I have to create it. Second, when I create a hold at the UCA VOR, the 540 assumes the inbound leg will be the direct leg to the VOR versus the actual inbound leg depicted on the approach chart. Now granted, we don't have to fly the full procedure very often, but has any discussion been given to providing a quick way to show the depicted PT or course reversal and insert it into the flight plan? Perhaps a second prompt; when you select the hold at UCA, you could also have a Hold at UCA as Depicted selection. Any thoughts?

brou0040 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 722	Post Options Post Reply Quote brou0040 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 10:11pm
	The hold depicted on the ILS 33 KRME is an arrival hold, not a procedure turn (or course reversal as far as I know); I assume that is why it is not shown as part of the procedure. From a flying perspective, I'm not sure I understand the difference; it would be nice if approach holds were included with the approaches. To change the hold to be what is on the plate, all you need to do is change the radial of the inbound leg of the hold to 332 deg in the hold box in the flight plan.

teeth6 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741	Post Options Post Reply Quote teeth6 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jun 2016 at 9:44am
	I appears to me that a course reversal is not required. You should be able to fly direct to UCA and then fly the feeder route from UCA on the 354 R to intercept final. If you do want a course reversal, you can coordinate that with SYR Approach and request a course reversal at the depicted arrival hold and then fly the feeder route to intercept. I am wrong on this?

DavidBunin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742	Post Options Post Reply Quote DavidBunin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jun 2016 at 11:30am
	You say you were inbound "from the West". Were you above or below the 292 radial? The chart says that arrival holding is not required from 086 to 292. I suppose that implies that a turn in the hold IS required if you arrive from between 292 and 086 (i.e. from the North). I wonder why the hold is on the 152 radial rather than on the 174 radial? Holding on the 174 would spit you out straight towards BOLTZ.

cavu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2015 Location: KRME Status: Offline Points: 152	Post Options Post Reply Quote cavu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jun 2016 at 9:16pm
	I think we are losing sight of my original point which was depicting the holding pattern using the 540 not all the nuances of this specific procedure.

teeth6 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741	Post Options Post Reply Quote teeth6 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jun 2016 at 10:58pm
	To address your original question, you can depict a holding pattern on any waypoint in your flightplan. Simply select the waypoint, hit enter and select a holding pattern. You can then create any inbound leg direction that you want. You do not have to accept the inbound course to the fix that you were presently on. Is this the question you were asking?

mfb Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 20 Dec 2014 Location: KATW Status: Offline Points: 293	Post Options Post Reply Quote mfb Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 2016 at 12:40am
	I think that he was asking why the IFD doesn't display this holding pattern automatically. Why does he have to set up the hold manually? The fact is that the IFD does set up holds automatically when they're part of an approach procedure. For some unknown reason this particular hold is not part of the procedure. Note that it's not depicted in bold on the approach plate. Now go to the GPS approach to the same runway and note that the course reversal hold IS in bold, but it's not located at the VOR. So the GPS approach has a course reversal hold but the ILS doesn't. The hold on the ILS chart is only an "arrival" hold. (See AIM 5-4-9 a 6.) If the hold isn't a course reversal hold a it won't be coded in the Jep database as such. Therefore the IFD won't know about it and can't fly it automatically. In real life the solution is simple: if you have to fly the whole approach without radar, just use the GPS approach instead. It has the same minimums as the ILS and it has a nice course reversal hold that the IFD will execute easily. Mike Edited by mfb - 05 Jun 2016 at 1:04am

cavu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2015 Location: KRME Status: Offline Points: 152	Post Options Post Reply Quote cavu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 2016 at 3:52pm
	Thank you mlb, that is the question I was asking. Also, why is there a prompt on the pull-down that allows you to create a hold at UCA (in this case) but no HOLD AS DEPICTED. It would be useful and is probably in the database already? I've received "Hold as depicted" clearances and this would eliminate me having to look it up.

brou0040 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 722	Post Options Post Reply Quote brou0040 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 2016 at 11:22pm
	I'd really hesitate "not looking it up" because you selected "hold as depicted". We should be verifying waypoints and stepdown altitudes when we load approaches and I see this as being no different. These boxes can take you the wrong direction and it is prudent that we double check where they are taking us. I've seen a case on this box where it put the hold at the wrong altitude when I had multiple approaches loaded in a row (such as having the alternate approach loaded). I agree it would be nice if approach holds were included when the approach is loaded, but I have a feeling this will be a request to Jepp rather than to Avidyne, but it would be nice for Avidyne to confirm this is the reason.