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Holding Cues

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dubs View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dubs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Holding Cues
    Posted: 23 Apr 2016 at 8:28am
I flew with my new IFD440 for the first time yesterday. With the assistance of an instructor who is relatively familiar with Avidyne products, we shot three GPS approaches and executed a hold. I was very pleased with how the IFD performed, including how it alerted prior to turns and course intercepts.

However, I was surprised to find that, when in a holding pattern, the IFD gave no prompts prior to turns, and gave no indication when crossing the fix, other than the graphic depiction of the hold on screen. I don't even think the CDI changed from "To" to "From", as a VOR would, when crossing the fix.

Is this normal behavior, or am I missing a User Defined Setting somewhere?

Dubs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2016 at 9:25am
The a "Hold Course XXX" message should be displayed just before you enter the hold. At least that's what the simulator does.  

The best indicator of what's going on is to watch the course lines depicted on the MAP display. The current leg is always magenta, the next leg is magenta barber pole. By watching the location of the barber pole you can see what's going to happen next. When you're established in the hold there is no barber pole leg, meaning that you'll stay there forever until you do something.

Mike

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2016 at 12:31pm
Yes, I agree with Mike.  I think it's extremely intuitive and behaves as it should.  There are also CAS messages that tell you what the system is doing or about to do.

Have you read the relevant Pilot Guide section(s) and if so, do you have any recommendations for improvement there?
Steve Jacobson
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dubs View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dubs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2016 at 3:18pm
Again, I've only flown with it once, under the hood with an instructor. But, I don't recall any prompts or messages while in the hold. Maybe I'm just so accustomed to steam gauges, but my altitude control gets sloppy if I spend too much time looking at the box. Also, I'm finding that the screen on the 440 is too small to be used for guidance. I prefer to leave it on the FMS screen and follow the CDI, relying on my panel mount iPad mini for situational awareness (looking forward to IFD100)

So, for the above stated reasons, I think it would be helpful if the CDI changed from "To" to "from" when crossing the fix in a hold.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2016 at 10:44pm
With GPS navigation you're always flying TO someplace. So the TO/FROM flag doesn't flip much. Even in a hold you're flying back TO the holding fix.

You can maintain situational awareness in two ways that I can think of:

1) If you use the IFD440 MAP page, create a Datablock that shows the distance to the current TO waypoint. As you're nearing the hold it will count down to zero. Enter the hold when it hits zero. It then shows your distance around the hold, reaching zero again whenever you cross the fix.

2) If you like to stay on the IFD440 FMS FPL page, use the MAP tab to display both a map and your flight plan. As you near the hold, scroll the flight plan so that the holding fix, which should be the magenta waypoint, is at the top of the screen.  When you enter the hold the magenta color will flip down to the next block in the flight plan, which is the hold itself. So you can watch the hold on the map (left) side of the page, and see the magenta waypoint flip colors on the flight plan (right) side of the page. 

Those are fairly simple cues that you should be able to include in your scan, even on the small screen of the 440. But it does take some getting used to.

I suggest that you use the IFD440 simulator to run practice scenarios until you are comfortable with the displays and the buttonology. You'll save a lot of time and avgas that way.

Mike


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dubs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2016 at 11:38pm
Thanks Mike. Good input. I have Time to Destination currently displayed. Time to Waypoint would be a good way to keep tabs on an approaching holding fix.

Thanks again,

Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2016 at 11:46pm
I like to use the FPL full page when doing procedures.  The MAP page is really only for situational awareness, I think all relevant information should be available from the FPL full page.  This is also where the exit/continue hold LSKs are.

When you have the FPL full page up, you have no idea where in the hold you are.  I'd like to suggest a feature request that an additional line be added to the hold flight plan block.  I understand you want the hold to be one block and not broken into multiple for each of the legs, but could you add an additional line to that one block that gives you an indication of where you are in the hold?  Perhaps a line between the waypoint and the altitude restrictions that states "inbound: x.x NM, y.y MIN to fix", "outbound: x.x NM, y.y MIN from fix", "outbound turn" or "inbound turn".

I think it would also be nice to have some sort of dot that travels around the hold graphic in the flight plan.  I don't think this would be sufficient by itself since I think it would be pretty small to see in a scan.

On the MAP page, you can get this information from the datablock, but you don't have access to the datablocks from the FPL page.


Edited by brou0040 - 23 Apr 2016 at 11:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 6:27am
Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

I like to use the FPL full page when doing procedures.  The MAP page is really only for situational awareness, I think all relevant information should be available from the FPL full page.  This is also where the exit/continue hold LSKs are.

When you have the FPL full page up, you have no idea where in the hold you are.  I'd like to suggest a feature request that an additional line be added to the hold flight plan block.  I understand you want the hold to be one block and not broken into multiple for each of the legs, but could you add an additional line to that one block that gives you an indication of where you are in the hold?  Perhaps a line between the waypoint and the altitude restrictions that states "inbound: x.x NM, y.y MIN to fix", "outbound: x.x NM, y.y MIN from fix", "outbound turn" or "inbound turn".

I think it would also be nice to have some sort of dot that travels around the hold graphic in the flight plan.  I don't think this would be sufficient by itself since I think it would be pretty small to see in a scan.

On the MAP page, you can get this information from the datablock, but you don't have access to the datablocks from the FPL page.






There are a few really interesting enhancement ideas in here. I will enter them into our candidate database. I also find the Designated Waypoint datablock that we added in Release 10.2 is extremely useful in these kinds of scenarios too.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 10:48am
Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

I like to use the FPL full page when doing procedures.  The MAP page is really only for situational awareness, I think all relevant information should be available from the FPL full page.  This is also where the exit/continue hold LSKs are.

When you have the FPL full page up, you have no idea where in the hold you are.  I'd like to suggest a feature request that an additional line be added to the hold flight plan block.  I understand you want the hold to be one block and not broken into multiple for each of the legs, but could you add an additional line to that one block that gives you an indication of where you are in the hold?  Perhaps a line between the waypoint and the altitude restrictions that states "inbound: x.x NM, y.y MIN to fix", "outbound: x.x NM, y.y MIN from fix", "outbound turn" or "inbound turn".

I think it would also be nice to have some sort of dot that travels around the hold graphic in the flight plan.  I don't think this would be sufficient by itself since I think it would be pretty small to see in a scan.

On the MAP page, you can get this information from the datablock, but you don't have access to the datablocks from the FPL page.






There are a few really interesting enhancement ideas in here. I will enter them into our candidate database. I also find the Designated Waypoint datablock that we added in Release 10.2 is extremely useful in these kinds of scenarios too.

I appreciate being able to make recommendations, thanks for continuing to improve the product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 2:45pm
Bump, I was just running into this lack of situational awareness once established in a hold on the flight plan page.  I don't find the mini flight plan useful enough (missing time/distance info) to use this instead of the full flight plan page.  I really like having the Nav Mode visible on the flight plan page so I want that datablock on the left side.  If I put the Nav Mode datablock on the left, I cannot put the Waypoint block on the left since it doesn't have enough room.

Could there be a Nav Mode datablock that would be small enough to fit on the top so I can fit the existing Waypoint datablock on the left, or could there be an abbreviated Waypoint datablock that removes bearing and ete, which would be small enough on the left to fit in addition to the Nav Mode datablock?  My thought for removing bearing and ete is that bearing is redundant and ete is less applicable if you are not flying to it so those although are nice to have when there is space are not critical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 9:44am
This might be a case where the greater screen real estate on the IFD100 would be helpful...

Rolfe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ricardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 12:59pm
On my cockpit I find that having both the fms page and the map page visible at the same time is necessary to have good situational awareness.

The ifd 100 is always on the map page, and the ifd is on the fms page 

If you have 2 ifds then you can skip the iPad. 
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