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Unusually distant IAF

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vuk3@me.com View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 8:00am
Hi guys,
I came across something today since the new Jepp Nav data update and I’m wondering if anyone else has had anything similar happen. I loaded an RNP approach I’ve flown with the IFD many times. Only this time the IAF was 7816NM away and the destination aerodrome was 7828NM Away! Only thing was that at the time I shot this pic I was on the ground AT the destination aerodrome. See pic.  
I initially thought that the GPS hadn’t found itself yet but when I checked, I had a firm position. Note the waypoint “MONTY” is correctly only 14.9NM away. When I looked at the IAF in the map tab of the FMS it all seemed OK and the approach worked as expected when I flew it. That said, I don’t find this very comforting.
Can someone shed some light on this unusual anomaly?
As I said I have never seen this behaviour in an approach procedure on the IFD. I figure it must be an error in the latest Jepp data, hoping it goes away after my next Nav data update.

Wishing you all a very happy 2022.

Cheers,
Andy


Edited by vuk3@me.com - 29 Dec 2021 at 8:04am
VH-UAR YMMB
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dmtidler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 12:24pm

I am interested in what the flight plan waypoint was immediately before the gap in route at the top of the screenshot. Based on the sidebar in the screenshot, there were many waypoints in the flight plan between the active waypoint (MONTY) and the flight plan portion displayed in the screenshot.

I was able to replicate a similar scenario in the IFD Trainer for AviOS 10.2.3.1. I think there are possibly two issues going on here:

  1. To me, it seems that the flight plan waypoint immediately prior to the gap in route may have actually been a waypoint whose IFD database lat/lon was in fact 7816 NM from MMBSA and 7828 NM from YMMB. That is why it would be highly useful to see what the waypoint immediately before the gap in route actually was. There numerous reasons an erroneous waypoint could end up in the flight plan than include both human factors as well as possible database errors.

  2. While not specifically demonstrated in this screenshot; in researching this scenario I did come across what seems to be an anomaly with the mini flight plan format like shown.

    Before the gap in route was created by inserting the RNAV 35R approach to YMMB, the flight mini and standard flight plan format would have shown the distance between the YMMB and the waypoint prior to it (7828 NM in this example). The anomaly appears to occur when the gap in route is created with the selection of an approach (RNAV 35R at YMMB); the mini flight plan format appears to lock the before gap insertion leg distance to the approach airport. This distance is locked as long as the gap remains and prior to the missed approach (at which point the locked distance is replaced by ---). At this point, any changes made in the flight plan on the non-approach side of the gap in route will not alter the locked airport distance (7828 NM in this example) shown at the approach airport in the mini flight plan format.

    In other words, even had this pilot determined the waypoint just prior to the gap was erroneous; changing or clearing that waypoint from the flight plan after the gap was created would not have changed the fixed 7828 NM distance shown at YMMB unless the gap was also cleared by any number of methods.

    Showing the standard flight plan format or cursor highlighting the mini flight plan format approach airport to expand it to standard format with the gap in route will cause the approach airport distance to indicate active direct distance to the airport. In the mini flight plan format, as soon as the flight plan cursor is moved off the approach airport, the locked leg distance will return as the waypoint reverts back to the mini flight plan format.

    This mini flight plan format anomaly appears to also be present in the IFD Trainer for AviOS 10.3.0.2. 

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vuk3@me.com View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vuk3@me.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 2:52pm
Thank you for looking into this Dmtidler, you are correct. I didn’t think to attempt to replicate this on the trainer app. 

I found that when the basic waypoints for the flight plan were entered it all works well. There are no unusual distances. However once you try to enter an approach it seems that the published missed approach has no finite ending and therefore puts you some 7000NM away from your next en route waypoint. 

It’s regardless of whether or not the FMS is in mini format. 
In this particular case the flight plan was as follows:
YMMB MONTY YMEN YMMB.
However when the ILS is loaded into the plan for YMEN then the published missed approach ends in a heading of (130* manual) for an indeterminate distance (- - -). Therefore the distance to the next waypoint is an arbitrary figure. 

I have not noticed this before, maybe it has always happened, I’m sure I would have noticed this behaviour before. I’ve been using the IFD for many years. Im going to try to find an old version of the Nav Database on another trainer app to see if I can replicate the issue. 

Now that I am aware of why it happens I can simply delete the previous waypoint from the flight plan and all’s well. 

Many thanks again,
Cheers!



Edited by vuk3@me.com - 29 Dec 2021 at 2:54pm
VH-UAR YMMB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vuk3@me.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 4:22pm
Ok guys,
This is something new, it appears that it’s a nav database anomaly. I dug up my old iPad with the trainer app loaded with an old Nav database and the issue doesn’t exist. See attached old and new.
VH-UAR YMMB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by vuk3@me.com vuk3@me.com wrote:

It’s regardless of whether or not the FMS is in mini format. 
In this particular case the flight plan was as follows:
YMMB MONTY YMEN YMMB.
However when the ILS is loaded into the plan for YMEN then the published missed approach ends in a heading of (130* manual) for an indeterminate distance (- - -). Therefore the distance to the next waypoint is an arbitrary figure. 

AFAIK - displayed flight plan format should not make any difference for the mileage reading at the fix just after the gap (MMBSA in your screenshot). 

A little more research and I think I have a more accurate explanation for what seems to be an anomaly.

Before an approach is selected, both the mini flight plan and standard flight plan formats show the distance to the airport identically as it would any other waypoint. If the airport is not the active waypoint, the distance is the leg length between the airport and the previous waypoint. When the airport is the active waypoint, the distance is the along track distance to the airport.

The difference appears when an approach is selected; in this case, the standard flight plan or cursor highlighted mini flight plan format show the approach airport distance as direct distance from the aircraft to the airport.

Conversely, the distance shown for the approach airport in the mini flight plan format shows the fixed direct distance between the approach airport and the previous flight plan waypoint that existed at the moment the approach procedure was selected. Even if a gap is not created when the approach procedure is selected, the mini flight format destination mileage remains fixed regardless of routing changes prior to the approach procedure even followed by a change of approach procedure. Only clearing an approach and reselecting an approach appears to recalculate the mini flight plan format destination mileage prior to the MAP (where it will blank). Not that this mini flight plan detail is in any way important in the grand scheme of things; it just seems a bit of an anomaly.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 5:04pm
That's interesting. I don't know of any NA approaches that don't go to a holding fix so I could not test on my IFD Trainer. I did test arrivals and departures that end with headings and the few I put into the trainer displayed normally.
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