Warranty and repair options

Hi Tony,

Maybe but having been intimately involved with the design of the unit, the location for the battery was carefully weighed against the various tradeoffs and this location was determined to be the best solution.

To try and tie up at least the battery question, 10ish years is a long time.  Noting how the extended warranty and various repair cost models have changed over the last 10 years implies to me that the options will evolve a lot between now and then.

At this time, if you are under whatever extended warranty plan(s) exist at the time, then no problem - it's covered.    If you are not covered under an extended warranty plan at the time, then right now, we have a $1200 flat rate out-of-warranty repair charge.  And yes, that out-of-warranty repair charge was designed to be on-par with Garmin, for better or for worse.

Will some evolution happen to the specific battery replacement fee along the lines of much cheaper knob replacements?  Maybe or maybe not.

To reiterate a point with the specific battery design here, it is buried way inside the unit and access is not as simple as removing the back plate or a single card.   We are not comfortable with a lay person or even a highly respected and capable avionics shop performing that specific maintenance at this time.   Might that change in the future?  Maybe or maybe not.

AviJake wrote: This kind of set up only happens a few times in a lifetime......just lock in AeroPlan and the $1200 is gone.

You're right in that AeroPlan is for other products.   I suspect we'll eventually generate several extended warranty options for the IFD series of products.   Right now, we're focused on getting them done and shipping and then we'll begin to craft some extended warranty plans.

This kind of set up only happens a few times in a lifetime......just lock in AeroPlan and the $1200 is gone.

Agreed but the operative word you used was "good" as in "good techy".  The problem is that many people would open the case and then some of the tight-fitting connections would be inappropriately altered.   And, it seems like a certainty that in 10 years of field life, there would be some hardware mods that we would also accomplish.

There is a battery in the IFD540 (and 440).  It holds up the unit settings memory and the on-board real-time clock.   We also have a capacitor (aka "super cap") that is designed to hold up the battery and the super cap can stay charged for somewhere between 3 weeks and 3 months.   The battery has a design life of 7-10 years..

Very funny!!!

Tragically, lots of truth there, however.

I forgot to check into the CMOS battery question.   Will try and tackle in next day or two.

AviJake wrote: There is no requirement to sign any indemnification statement for the IFD540/440.    We should probably start a different thread on that clause that is part of the AeroPlan Extended Warranty offering for some of the other Avidyne products to stop the fundamental misunderstandings.  For example,  Tony's posting above at 4:42 is not an accurate representation of the offering - it's way off the mark.

Steve, my EX500 range knob is intermittent. Does not work initially, then works later in the flight. It is about 5 years old and I had the same problem when it was 1 year old. It was fixed then under warranty. Will I have to pay a flat charge (how much?) or can it be repaired by a local shop?

Dave

Steve, thank you for the clarification.  2 years and $1200 flat rate repair seems reasonable to me.

Now all I have to do is live long enough to install the unit :-)


Edited by phkmn - 10 Sep 2013 at 9:58pm

Let's keep it simple.    Here is a short and sweet version of the standard and extended warranty data for the Avidyne products:

So you’re not bothered by the fact that you will have to sign a repair agreement where you agree that you won’t sue Avidyne if you crash, regardless of whether the crash was Avidyne’s fault?  You also aren’t bothered by the agreement that if one of his passengers is injured in the crash, and your passenger sues Avidyne, you will pay Avidyne’s attorneys fees in defending the case in court?  You also aren’t bothered by the fact that if in your accident the guy on the ground sues Avidyne; you agree to pay any court judgment that is awarded against Avidyne; even though the accident turns out to be entirely Avidyne’s fault and not yours? And then after you sell your aircraft, you are on the hook forever?   If the new owner crashes, and then sues Avidyne, you will agree to pay for Avidyne’s attorneys and for any judgment that the new owner (or his passengers) obtain against it.

Frankly any company that even poses such a ridiculous agreement is suspect.  I’m hoping Avidyne rethinks their position in this and publishes a fair and reasonable repair fee schedule.  If not, I am cancelling my order.  What I would sign to hold down repair costs is a hold harmless agreement, but I’m not willing to be Avidyne’s insurance company.

I figure this answer needs to be vetted by senior management and by the legal department.  If there's a delay we can always blame the lawyers.  Unless Steve has cats, because cats can be blamed for anything.

This time it was me who dropped the ball.  I'll have to dust off the company response from last week and post it by Friday.

While I have a draft completed, due to the number (of what I'm taking to be well-intentioned and well-meaning) warnings we've received from the customer base, we're having to carefully review every syllable of the response.   Couple more days it looks like.....

steve, when you do address this, chose your words carefully.  Avidyne just needs to do whats right.  Many are watching.....

Edited by tony - 21 Aug 2013 at 7:17am

I am not sure I understand this discussion. reading it closerit seems to be two discussions,.

1. The price for warranty extension and the repair price post warranty
2. A total liability waiver?

Ad 1. In Europe consumer law states that a minimum of two years warranty is obligatory.
Do I understand correctly that the mentioned warranty extension price for the Entegra is 5.900? Surely that cannot be the price for an IfD440 or 540.

I cannot imagine that Avidyne would not put out a fair and competitive postwarranty repair price. I believe Garmin charges 850 usd (or euro?) no matter what for the repair of a 530/430. I have not heard the price for the GTN yet.


Ad 2.
I am not sure how US law works but in Europe there is a law that says that you must be able to expect certain things of a product, service, etc.. This law overrides all other laws, agreements and contracts. Basically it means .. For example .. You buy a new mercedes (a high quality car) with two years warranty. After 2.5 years and a normal milage .. Out of the blue the engine says bang and is a write off. With this law you can still go back to mercedes and claim warranty (albeit to a reasonabl percentage of the life expectancy). A mercedes engine should run a hell of a lot longer than 2.5 years with a normal milage.

Ditto, a manufacturer can indemnify or teject any liability he wants ... But if big errors were made all those clauses become void anyway. Now how this works out in the unlikely event that for example an ac crashes on an approach while in IMC because there was a bug in the sw giving a .. Lets say false position .. Or in any case a wrong situation.. I cannot tell you.

I believe it unlikely that it could be determined that thus was the cause .. Neither can I tell you wether all the rejection clauses would hold up.

It will be a bit like the sfo crash. By the looks of it the cause seems to be that The crew failed to maintain proper airspeed while doing a visual without glideslope aid. Normally one would do this with autothrottle on, however in the 777 if you retrim you affect your airspeed.. This is by design.. Also there are .. Certain moments when a/t does not (re)engage. I believe below a certain altitude.

Clearly their was nothing wrong with the ac

One can blame Asiana Air for poor training as pilots should be able to land fully manual /visual and maintain basic flying skills like pitch, power and speed
Or
One can blame the Boeing training manual if it does not train for this sort of situation
Or
One can blame Boeing for bad design or bad enveloppe protection ..

Say reason 2 or 3 were to be found as reason, would any liability waiver hold up in court?

As i said I am trying to understand the problem, is t hus what is ment with the liability problem?

Steve, Glassanza is just being so nice and politically correct.  Let me translate Glassanza's  statement into Jersey speak for you.  If this issue doesn't get resolved by the time you guys are ready to ship, I'm afraid a LOT of people will be asking for their deposits back.  The liability issue is huge.

Lot's of data to process - I bet you guys don't find that shocking.   Drafting a description of the options now.  Fitting it in between a number of other tasks so I might be a few days away from publishing it here.

AviJake wrote: It appears that there is way more disinformation than correct understandings in the field regarding the warranty options. We're collecting a lot of feedback at Oshkosh and will endeavor to publish as clear a description of the options as possible post-show, including the percentage comparisons.

Thank you.  Publishing options will certainly help mitigate disinformation.

tony wrote: Steve, might I suggest that you post your clarifications on avidyne.com for the whole world to see.  Right now, if I am understanding the waiver correctly (and I'm not a lawyer), I'm inclined to cancel my order as well.  I think that my sentiment will be repeated by quite a few.  This issue being discussed on the Cessna boards, Beachtalk, Mooneypace, etc.  Frankly I think Avidyne stumbled badly on this one.    What you're hearing is your very patient and loyal customers are angry, what you will never hear are the hundreds of potential customers that this policy is driving to Garmin.

I agree with Tony here.  Failing to address these concerns will only serve to promulgate the speculation disinformation and concerns of your potential customers.

It appears that there is way more disinformation than correct understandings in the field regarding the warranty options.