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AeroPlan warranty in the news

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MikeK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AeroPlan warranty in the news
    Posted: 05 Apr 2015 at 8:31pm
The latest issue of Aviation Consumer features a letter from a reader who was looking at the IFD-540 as part of an avionics upgrade.  The reader and his partner balked at the AeroPlan warranty, and said that they had "several" attorneys look at the agreement, and received the advice that nobody in their right mind would sign it.

Aviation Consumer replied by saying that they "simply cannot understand how [Avidyne] made a decision to impose a condition that could financially destroy a customer who signs up for AeroPlan."

I see discussions of a similar nature on the Cirrus Owners & Pilots Association forums.

The old saying is that there's no such thing as bad publicity, but I rather think that does not hold in this case.  Whatever the intentions of the indemnity provisions in AeroPlan, it seems that it has had quite a devastating effect on Avidyne's reputation.  

As an Avidyne customer, I would encourage the company to recognize that they have a serious problem on their hands with this program, and address it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2015 at 8:47pm

In the Bonanza world, Aero Plan and specifically the indemnification of Avidyne by the buyer has negatively impressed a bunch of Bonanza drivers.

Look on Beechtalk.

Attributed to somebody from Avidyne on Beechtalk (was it Tom Harper?) Avidyne is going to make some sort of statement around this.

I hope they do so.

David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2015 at 9:40pm
Well, of course Aeroplan is optional, you can decline it.

But, I agree, it is an odd product to put forward. The potential negative publicity would likely offset any of the potential benefits of being able to offer a lower cost, longer term, warranty 

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 05 Apr 2015 at 9:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TogaDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2015 at 11:50am
Also agreed - this smells.  I just read the waiver in detail and sent it off to my broker to inquire with our insurance carrier.  I will follow up with the specific cases below and ask for an answer on each one.

I think, in practice, if a pilot is the sole owner of the aircraft and the only operator then this is a non-issue since it would be the estate suing Avidyne which would then wave the agreement around.  In this case the estate would be the loser but also the claimant.  I really don't have a problem in that case - I'd like to think I don't trust any one data source enough to let it kill me.  I'm probably wrong about that.

The insidious issues are, what if:

1) you co-own the aircraft then whoever signed the agreement may be on the hook regardless of who's flying it.  That's simply wrong - and possibly unenforceable.  I would think no co-owned aircraft partnership would/should sign this.

2) you have the plane ferried somewhere and the ferry pilot crashes into a frat house full of trustifarians.

3) someone STEALS your plane and crashes it into a frat house full of trustifarians.

This kind of legal paranoia is rather disturbing.  Some might interpret this as Avidyne's management not trusting their product development.  Knowing the good people on the eng side from this forum, it can't make them very happy to think people may read it this way.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2015 at 12:32pm
As Steve has said, everyone can decline and self-insure, biting the $1200 flat fee in case of failure. Many should probably do this regardless especially if the box is as reliable as Garmin's tend to be.

Vince
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TogaDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2015 at 12:58pm
So, Vince, it doesn't bother you that the waiver exists?  Did you sign it?

Just curious - I'm not interested in starting a flame war on this subject but I commented because I see this kind of CYA as just one more reason that aviation is dying a slow, painful death.

And it also concerns me because it makes me worry that my nice new (and very useful) IFD540 will become an orphan due to some tone-deaf attorney in Avidyne's management tree killing the company because they do not understand how harmful this can become in an environment where every comment, every statement, and every mistake (e.g. the waiver) is broadcast and amplified over social media.

I don't remember signing a waiver like this in order to get the bumper to bumper 4 year warranty on my car. And I suspect Honda is far more likely to get sued...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2015 at 1:44pm

The issue here isn't the waiver, it's the "indemnification" (paragraph 4 in the agreement). As I read it, it says that if I do something stupid as a pilot, I or my estate will cover all of Avidyne's expenses in defending itself against any claims.

That means that my back seat passenger or someone on the ground could sue Avidyne and I would be responsible for Avidyne's legal fees and any settlement costs.

I don't mind promising not to sue Avidyne myself. But I don't want to defend Avidyne against someone who I have no control over. That's what insurance is for.

My lawyer's opinion was "this could bankrupt you." That doesn't seem like a good idea.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2015 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by TogaDriver TogaDriver wrote:

So, Vince, it doesn't bother you that the waiver exists?  Did you sign it?



Sure, I don't like the indemnification clause. No, I didn't take the AeroPlan warranty extension and therefore didn't sign the form. I don't plan to. I see no sense in moaning about it. I recommend everyone to evaluate their case and decide accordingly. But let's not try to make Avidyne look like a bad guy. It's a business, and they've made a business decision whether the user base in general agrees with that or not.

I'm a pre-buyer with 2 year warranty. If I have a repair after that, I'll just bite the bullet and pay the $1200 flat fee. If the box is as reliable as Garmin stuff (and I do hope that it is), that's a better risk for me than the savings vs indemnification tradeoff. I suspect that's the case for most "small" budget buyers even if they buy now and only get the 1 year warranty.

My point is simply that signing the indemnity form is a customer decision, not Avidyne's. It is correct that social media can have a large positive or negative impact on a company's reputation. That could mean some lost customers. The ones that stay shouldn't rant in my opinion, or display such indignation about Avidyne's actions (and I believe that the vast majority of the forum contributors are customers). State our concerns, sure. Then move on and not labour the point to death. Make our choices and live with them. Avidyne will have to live with them too. In my opinion, this forum is having an large positive impact on Avidyne's reputation despite all the product birth pains and warts. It is out there and generally getting very good reviews. I think they have a winner, and not just as plug-and-play.

My rant:
I detect here a common tendency being nurtured by social media of making others responsible for our own choices. That's a cop-out. All products and services are offered at a given price. Many people may want the product but aren't prepared to pay the price. A common phenomenon today is using social media to flame the supplier in an attempt to get the price lowered. That might work with some suppliers, but usually those are the companies that fail because they are in a race to the bottom (price). The proper response is to pay the price or take the money and buy elsewhere. Let the market decide who wins. Negotiation is appropriate in many cases, but ranting and raving won't usually bring the desired response. Apple is a good example of a company that has been flamed in the social media for some very good reasons. If the criticism is justified, Apple tends to adapt accordingly in the long run (e.g. labour conditions in China). But complaining about the high price and claiming that the price is criminal and Apple's reputation will be hurt by it doesn't bring any benefit short term. If the demand dries up (and try to prove that it's because of the high price), then Apple might respond. But at the end of the day it's a business decision. If Avidyne loses a lot of business because of this, they should be smart enough to realize that. I don't think so in this case. They just might not get many takers on the AeroPlan. That doesn't mean I agree with AeroPlan T&C's.... which is why I didn't buy in. We're all responsible for our own choices.




Edited by chflyer - 08 Apr 2015 at 5:57pm
Vince
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MikeK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 12:25am
Originally posted by TogaDriver TogaDriver wrote:

And it also concerns me because it makes me worry that my nice new (and very useful) IFD540 will become an orphan due to some tone-deaf attorney in Avidyne's management tree killing the company because they do not understand how harmful this can become in an environment where every comment, every statement, and every mistake (e.g. the waiver) is broadcast and amplified over social media.
1000x this!  I won't sign up for AeroPlan, so I'm not concerned about the waiver or indemnity personally.  But I am very concerned by the effect that this thing is having on Avidyne's reputation, and therefore the future success of the company.

When you have a publication like Aviation Consumer calling you boneheaded in print, I really think that some soul-searching is in order.


Edited by MikeK - 14 Apr 2015 at 5:59pm
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TogaDriver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TogaDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 1:39am
It's nice to know that others agree I'm neither ranting, nor am I raving (mad). Nor am I moaning.  I, and others, are simply pointing out that this policy could come back and bite us all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 1:53am
And the sun could super nova on us tomorrow.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TogaDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 1:58am
I'll put my money on geomagnetic inversion first.  Watch for all the birds to migrate toward Boston in November...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SB Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 9:12am
I will not sign the Aero Plan Extended Warranty agreement. It opens indivduals up to risks for which they cannot get insurance. It is a very poor move on the part of Avidyne.

Some claim that Avidyne greatly increased the flat rate repair fee on the Entegra product but if users signed up for the Aero Plan Warranty only a modest flat rate repair fee would be incurred.

The question then is what is to prevent Avidyne from taking this route with IFD 540 purchasers?

Avidyne is competing head to head with Garmin, the established market leader. I've only had my IFD 540 for 2 weeks, but I am really enjoying it so far.

It is not enough to compete on price and product, Avidyne also needs to compete on service and warranty.

I feel this warranty is doing significant damage to Avidyne's competitive efforts. One gent on BeechTalk claims it has already cost Avidyne 10 IFD 540 sales from his group of close friends.

I did not know about the Aero Plan when I pre-purchased my IFD 540 in 2011. The flat rate repair fee and standard warranty language are acceptable as they stand today.

The reality is that Garmin's warranty and customer service treatment (for the 11 years after I purchased a CNX 80 in 2004) were the primary drivers of my decision to go with Avidyne for my IFD 540 / AXP 340 combination.

It would be a real business mistake for Avidyne to drive customers back to the Garmin camp with warranty and customer service issues that are worse than those I had with Garmin.

Edited by SB Jim - 09 Apr 2015 at 9:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 9:52am

I am relinquishing the extra year of warranty.

I owe that sort of fidelity to my wife who could curse me through eternity if I leave her with legal stuff she didn't ask for and doesn't want.  Truth be told, most of our wives just tolerate our little planes and our aviation fixations anyway.

That said, I don't trust or mistrust Avidyne.  It is a business relationship. 

I am going to purchase more Avidyne products (including a DFC90 HINT HINT if they ever will get this done).  I like their innovation plans and their products.

And I am going to fly safely.


David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comancheguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 10:37am
MY wife OCCAISIONALLY lets me fly her Pacer.  (The comanche is mine!) (sorta).
 
My wish list includes:
A remote ADSB-out/transponder controlled by the 540s. 
A box that matches the 540s but does what a G500/600 does (with avidyne innovation).
 
But, by the time the FAA ever approved them, I'll be too old to fly.  (and I am not that old, now).
 
Ken
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 10:59am
Avidyne just announced a remote transponder like you want, and hopefully will begin their PFD4000 (g500/600 competitor) as soon as the 440 is done.  That will take care of your #2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by TogaDriver TogaDriver wrote:

It's nice to know that others agree I'm neither ranting, nor am I raving (mad). Nor am I moaning.  I, and others, are simply pointing out that this policy could come back and bite us all.


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