|
SID, missing fixes? |
Post Reply 
|
| Author | |
fritz 
Groupie 
Joined: 18 Jan 2014 Location: SF Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 57 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: SID, missing fixes?Posted: 19 Dec 2015 at 8:38pm |
|
I tried to fly a SID for the first time today, and was confused by what the IFD540 "wanted: me to do.
The SID is the Santa Rosa 8 (KSTS). It has you intercept a radial, and climb to a fix (TIKOY). Upon reaching TIKOY, turn to a heading of 70, to intercept another radial to a fix (SNUPY). Then fly to SGD (VOR). The IFD540 presented only the SNUPY fix, then the VOR. It depicted fly direct to SNUPY. The Sim exhibits the same behavior, although it has the Santa Rosa 6 vs the Santa Rosa 8. I hate to mention this, but my old GNS 530 made this SID a snap to fly, while with the IFD540, I have to use VORs! I hope this is a case of operator error. If so, what did I do wrong?  |
|
 |
|
|
n7ifr
Senior Member 
Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Dec 2015 at 9:55pm |
|
Hmmm Well, like you have pointed out, the STS6, which is on the iPad SIM on the Jepp Chart looks correct, but the Flight Plan invoked upon choosing the STS6 looks just plain wrong... missing the first three critical legs.
Not a 540 issue, but looks like a database issue. I assume the "Current" database on the 540 is also wrong as noted above. Tom Wolf
|
|
|
|
|
brou0040
Senior Member
Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Dec 2015 at 10:01pm |
|
I'm not sure that it's not a 540 issue. There have been several posts about the 540 changing flight plans of procedures by moving waypoints around, deleting waypoints, and having incorrect altitudes for published holds. There hasn't been any resolution to any of those previous threads yet.
|
|
|
|
|
luchetto
Senior Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 119 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 1:36pm |
|
Yes, I also think its a 540 problem as when you select the approach on the sim the preview seems correct as on the chart but once you activate it flies dct snupy. I hope the real box does it correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
AviJake
Admin Group 
Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 1:40pm |
|
No this is not a bug and it is per design. I'll double check the description is in the pilot guide but the gist is:
The legs in that SID that exist prior to SNUPY are dependent upon the departure runway. Once a runway is selected on the origin airport, the legs corresponding to that runway will be inserted into the departure. Selection of the departure runway corresponds to the separate instructions on the approach chart. |
|
|
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
|
|
|
|
fritz
Groupie
Joined: 18 Jan 2014 Location: SF Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 57 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 2:17pm |
|
That makes sense, and I would have expected to be prompted for the departure runway. Using the Sim I see that the runway needs to be entered. Is there any other way to enter the departure runway?
Thanks Jake!
Edited by fritz - 20 Dec 2015 at 2:18pm |
|
|
|
|
luchetto
Senior Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 119 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 3:34pm |
|
I can't seem to find a way to enter the departing runway on the sim, but then independently from which runway one departs tikoy would always be the first waypoint but the sim goes to snupy directly. I still don't understand the logic.
|
|
|
|
|
fritz
Groupie
Joined: 18 Jan 2014 Location: SF Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 57 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 3:43pm |
On the FMS page, right after the airport identifier there is a field labeled Rwy where you can enter the runway number.
|
|
|
|
|
luchetto
Senior Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 119 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 4:57pm |
|
ok found it thanks. I still don't get the logic as all runways request the tikoy waypoint. it's a bit convoluted imo.
|
|
|
|
|
AviJake
Admin Group
Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 5:29pm |
|
In the original design, we tried to keep
dropdowns from getting too deeply nested. So, if there is an enroute
transition you won't get a dropdown for runway transitions. Looks like
this Santa Rosa case is a case we didn't quite design for because there is only
one enroute transition. When there would be only one choice in a
dropdown, we just assume the choice and don't present the dropdown for
it. But because there was one, we ended up not presenting the runway
transition dropdown either. So in this case, we could have presented
runway transitions and still kept to the current level of dropdowns. In
reality, that extra level of dropdown would occur only infrequently and its
presence would increase clarity in cases like this. We'll look into adding
the runway transition dropdown and see how huge of a deal it is. We
wouldn't present the dropdown if a runway has already been selected.
|
|
|
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
|
|
|
|
brou0040
Senior Member
Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 6:04pm |
|
Can you please also look into why the flight plan is dependent on the order adding a STAR vs an IAP?
|
|
|
|
|
AviJake
Admin Group
Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2015 at 6:50pm |
|
roger
|
|
|
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
|
|
|
|
khuffine
Groupie
Joined: 12 Dec 2015 Location: GSO Status: Offline Points: 68 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Dec 2015 at 6:48pm |
|
If I add an approach to the end of the flight plan, the last leg to the airport seems to disappear on the map unless I activate the approach. Is this my imagination or should u just wait until the destination to find out what app you will really use and then select. seems like a route discontinuity after the end and then VTF would work great, like the honeywell FMC.
|
|
|
Khuffine
|
|
|
|
|
oskrypuch
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Dec 2015 at 9:26pm |
|
That is the way they decided to handle the situation where you are not yet DCT to the destination, and add an approach. You aren't explicit how you will transition from the enroute to the approach. You can highlight the Gap in route (discontinuity), and hit CLR, that will get rid of the discontinuity and join up the route.
The IFD does something perhaps a little unexpected if you add an approach, when you are DCT to the airport. It leaves you still flying DCT to the airport, and adds the approach and another instance of the airport at the end of the flight plan. At first I thought that kind of odd, more used to the above approach, but I've gotten used to it. It also does mean that your active flight routing is not disturbed when DCT the airport, until you wish it to be. When you activate that approach, you are sent DCT the IAF, or you can choose another waypoint and DCT to it. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 24 Dec 2015 at 9:29pm |
|
|
|
|
AviJake
Admin Group
Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 Jan 2016 at 11:43am |
|
This is a description of the change we made to support this issue:
When a SID/STAR is selected from the initial dropdown, a sequence of dropdowns may be presented to allow the selection of an enroute transition and a runway transition. The structure of the SID/STAR and the presence of a selected runway will impact whether a specific dropdown is presented.
The FMS processes enroute transitions first. If the SID/STAR has more than one published enroute transition, the FMS will present a dropdown menu showing those transitions and the pilot will select the desired transition. If the SID/STAR has only one published enroute transition, the FMS will automatically select that one and no dropdown for enroute transitions will be presented. There are SIDs/STARs that have no published enroute transitions. In those cases, this entire step is skipped.
Once the enroute transition has been selected, the FMS will process runway transitions. There are SIDs/STARs that do not have published runway transitions. For those cases, the rest of this process is skipped and the selected procedure and enroute transition are inserted into the flight plan. Otherwise, the FMS proceeds differently based on whether the airport (origin for SIDs, destination for STARs) has a selected runway.
If the airport has a selected runway and that runway is applicable to the selected SID/STAR, then the FMS will choose the runway transition corresponding to the selected runway and the procedure is inserted into the flight plan without further pilot action. However, if the airport does not have a selected runway or if the selected runway is not applicable to the SID/STAR, then a runway transition must be selected. If the SID/STAR has only one published runway transition, the FMS will automatically select that one and then insert the procedure into the flight plan. If there is more than one published transition, the FMS will present a dropdown menu showing all of the runway transitions and the pilot will select the desired transition. Once that selection has been made, the procedure and all selected transitions will be inserted into the flight plan.
If the inserted SID/STAR had a selected runway transition and either the airport had no selected runway or the selected runway was not applicable to the SID/STAR, then the FMS will set the runway for the airport based on the runway transition that was selected. There are cases where a runway transition applies to all runways at the airport or to all of a set of parallel runways. In those cases, if there was no selected runway for the airport, the FMS will select the first runway (numerically) that is applicable. |
|
|
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
|
|
|
|
oskrypuch
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 Jan 2016 at 12:26pm |
|
Bravo.
The definitive manner that you are saying it, is that expected in 10.2? * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 16 Jan 2016 at 12:39pm |
|
|
|
|
AviJake
Admin Group
Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 Jan 2016 at 12:37pm |
|
Yes
|
|
|
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
|
|
|
|
oskrypuch
Senior Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 Jan 2016 at 12:39pm |
|
Double Bravo. A "real" FMS solution.
Looking forward to the 10.2 PG update, will you have it up a bit before the release, so we can get reading? * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 16 Jan 2016 at 12:43pm |
|
|
|
|
DavidBunin
Senior Member
Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Jan 2016 at 6:59am |
If I read this correctly, the FMS is going to change the flight plan runway without direct input from (or alert to) the pilot. Yes? David Bunin |
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
|
Tweet
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
luchetto wrote: