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Garmin G5 and IFD 540 |
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oskrypuch 
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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 Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 4:59pm |
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Anything can fail, but mechanical, vacuum driven instruments are far more likely to stop indicating, than electronic ones.
But, if you are all electric, ideally you would have an alternate source of power (in a twin or with a standby alternator), and at a minimum have them independently battery backed'up. I put in a standby alternator when I went all electronic and pulled the vacuum system.
* Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 29 Jun 2017 at 5:00pm |
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skitheo
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Posted: 02 Jul 2017 at 1:25am |
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So can dual G5's feed air data to the IFD540?
Seems like dual G5 + IFD540 + Trio A/P is a good IFR solution, made even better with air data connection. |
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BobsV35B
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Posted: 02 Jul 2017 at 2:04pm |
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Just as a small note about back up stuff -- When I eliminated all of the stock air instruments I did retain a vaccuum powered T&B along with the electrc T&B. The vacuum is supplied by a venturi mounted a couple feet aft of the exhaust. If all else fails it is needle, ball, and airspeed, for me.
Works great! Very light weight and relatively cheap. Happy Skies, Old Bob
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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AUXAIR
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Posted: 02 Jul 2017 at 7:39pm |
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The vacuum pump on my Cessna 182RG failed yesterday on a flight. It had the usual symptoms, starting with "the leans", finally dying completely. However it was not an issue at all because I had replaced my IFD 540 with an IFD550 several months ago. The AHRS display on the 550 presented a very fine display in Synthetic Vision mode and was a most credible substitute for an attitude indicator! |
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David E.
Cessna 182 RG II |
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skitheo
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Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 4:21pm |
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Again:
Can dual G5's feed air data to IFD540/440s?
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paulr
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Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 9:33am |
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I was going to just flat-out say "no" because it isn't listed in Section 2.3 of the install manual, which covers the list of approved ADCs. However, the header for that section says "The following list represents the proven interfaces. There may be other devices that can be configured the same as one on the below list but Avidyne has not tested it and can therefore not make any compatibility claims."
Therefore, I'll rephrase my answer: neither Avidyne nor Garmin says you can feed air data to an IFD from single or dual G5s but maybe you can do some "Cajun engineering" and figure out a way to make it work, at which point you probably have paperwork issues with the FAA. I would love for this capability to be formally supported… but first, Garmin, please please please add autopilot pickoff support.
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luchetto
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Posted: 09 Jul 2017 at 2:51am |
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I think Avidyne should develop a similar product and add the features we need for compatibility issues. If Dynon, GRT and Garmin can do it, it shouldn't take years for Avi to come out with something similar.
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LANCE
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Posted: 09 Jul 2017 at 9:06am |
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I had 2 Aspens in a previous airplane and really enjoyed them. I had a Midcontinent Lifesaver Gyro with battery as my backup. They are rated at 7500 hours before failure. (I doubt there are any G5's with 200 hours on them yet.) Even though I was new to Aspens, I always felt comfortable with that set-up. I have a Midcontinent Lifesaver with battery as a replacement for my turn coordinator in the airplane I have now. If I ever put an Aspen in I'm set. It just feels to me like better redundancy than the G5 that Garmin openly admits is not recommended as a backup. Even though the software updates have helped make it more stable, it was released with the original software that gave pilots false attitude readings. How does a product get released like that? It would take a lot more total hours by a lot of pilots for me to feel very comfortable with it. It seems like it was rushed to the market. I've never had a desire to be a test pilot. From what I've read about the L-3 Genesis, it seems like a proper backup. The ARS on my IFD550 will serve as tie-breaker if my two attitude indicators disagree.
Edited by LANCE - 09 Jul 2017 at 8:00pm |
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BobsV35B
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Posted: 09 Jul 2017 at 9:49am |
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I can think of no ndstrument more reliable than a venturi driven T&B.
Happy Skies, Old Bob
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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AzAv8r
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Posted: 09 Jul 2017 at 1:13pm |
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Everything can fail. Venturis can ice up, and any mechanical gyro has bearings. (The venturi is at least independent of avgas, so it keeps working during that oh-no! glide through the undercast.) And there are a number of posts on some of the type forums about G5s and Quattros dying en-mass, some stating the Garmin and Sandia have stopped shipping. in the 35 years I've been flying (and I didn't fly a lot until we bought our plane 12 years ago), I've had about 5 vacuum instrument or system failures, two electric gyro failures, and three alternator failures. (The majority in rental aircraft, a few right after we bought our plane). Never in true IMC, although one was in virtual IMC (night, remote mountainous terrain with no horizon lights, no moon). Perhaps luckily, I was in the middle of my IFR training and my cross-check proficiency kept me from entering a death-spiral.
The key is complete independence of the backup system. An independent battery-backed electronic AI seems to me to (potentially) provide the safest solution, since it would be standalone. When my vacuum pump hits the 500-hour "mandatory" replacement time, I'll be selecting the self-contained electronic alternative for my backup AI. Ultimately I'll probably put a back-up alternator on the mounting |
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BobsV35B
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Posted: 09 Jul 2017 at 3:52pm |
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Agreed that anything can fail, but the most likely thing to fail is the aviator.
We regularly hear stories of airplanes being lost due to simple failures when the aviator does not have the ability to use the back up instrumentation. Needle - ball only works if you have recent practice. A back up gyro is only useful if the aviator has currency and confidence in it's use. In my not so humble opinion, simpler is better! Happy Skies, Old Bob (Active IFR pilot since 1950)
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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AzAv8r
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Posted: 09 Jul 2017 at 5:25pm |
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Indeed! From NTSB reports, seems like way too many tragic aviation accidents are transformed from incidents to accidents by pilot error, and often by pilots who should know better.
So, the key is actually: pilot proficiency and situational awareness. But redundancy is not very far behind. |
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DavidBunin
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Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 2:53pm |
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One of my favorites, "The only place you can truly buy safety is at the store that sells pilot training."
I used to be part-owner of a flight school, and I loved that phrase. The only problem was that it seemed self-serving, so I never got to use it. I had to get other people to say it for me. No piece of equipment provides safety like knowledge and proficiency. The aviator is more likely to the the cause of any accident than the equipment. My airplane has one engine, one propeller, one alternator, one vacuum pump, one oil pump, and the list goes on. Yet even with all that, the most likely cause of an accident is me, the one pilot. |
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jwjenks
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Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 8:37pm |
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Got a 172N and I have a IFD 550. I'm an IFR pilot.
I'm leaving for Oshkosh this Friday to purchase a Trio or TruTrak which will replace my current ARC Autopilot (not working). I also plan to buy a stand alone AI. I have a vacuum AI and DG currently installed right over the yoke. I was in intermittent IFR two days ago and had the synthetic vision on. I actually liked the AI and DG display better than the Syn vis. The problem was the horizontal attitude bar on the Syn Vis is not adjustable up and down (maybe I just haven't read enough of the manual). There's a lot of data on the Syn vis display and the AI is really simple to read. Anyway I was just wondering: 1 Which manufacturers make a stand alone AI? 2 Do both TruTrak and Trio autopilots follow the magenta line? |
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JWJ
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DH82FLYER
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Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 10:38am |
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Garmin has just announced G5 HSI support for the following autopilots, this coming September.
Also GPSS Roll Steering support, with GTN or GNS input, will be a feature. Avidyne needs to urgently make the IFD's compatible with the G5, as this is going to be very popular... o Century II/III o Century IV (AC), IV (DC) o Century 21/31/41 o Century 2000 o Cessna 400B o Cessna 300 IFCS/400 IFCS o Honeywell (Bendix King) KAP 100/150/200 o Honeywell (Bendix King) KFC 150/200 o Honeywell (Bendix King) KAP 140 o Honeywell (Bendix King) KFC 225 o S-TEC 20/30/40/50/55/60-1/60-2/65 o S-TEC 60 PSS o S-TEC 55X Edited by DH82FLYER - 18 Jul 2017 at 11:00am |
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Gring
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Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 1:06pm |
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I don't know how popular this will be. From the marketing information provided by Garmin, the G5 will interface with the listed autopilots only in a lateral mode - HDG or GPSS. It does not appear to have the ability to control a vertical mode - VS, ALT HOLD, FLC, IAS,etc. nor does it appear to be able to support coupled approaches with a glideslope.
I can't see replacing a KI256 with a G5 and lose significant functionality. |
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skycobra
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Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 9:37pm |
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Are you sure? The Stec-60 is strictly a pitch stabilization unit.....no lateral inputs required. It does provide Alt hold, Vertical Speed, and Glide Slope capture. I will be more that happy to dump all my gimbals, bearing, and mechanical gyro's in favor of todays solid state units as I think many more will be making the shift. I look forward to a healthy competitive environment that gives us the best in technology especially around cost effective autopilots even if it's the big G pushing the envelope.
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Al
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comancheguy
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Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 11:16pm |
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How many GA airplanes have autopilots that can fly the vertical part of an approach? Ok. Now how many of those autopilots are under 40 years old? How many work?
For the rest of us... Getting an electric attitude indicator (I'll keep my vacuum as a backup, thank you), an HSI, that will interface with our autopilots and legally fit in the panel for $4500 plus install is a bargain. Heck the STEC GPSS module costs almost half that. Heck Garmin wants almost half that to service my GI-106 that is acting up again. I don't mean to sound argumentative, but they are going to sell tons of G5s. Ken |
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Flying_Monkey
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Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 2:26am |
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Avidyne, please hear us and see that the G5 is and will continue to grow greatly in popularity. You really need to push to get the IFD units compatible (and legally compatible) with the G5s. If not, I will begin to regret choosing Avidyne over Garmin for my new IFR GPS unit that is currently being installed. It's too late to change for me but others will continue to have a choice and the G5 will play a major role...
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LANCE
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Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 8:34am |
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Who knows? Maybe Avidyne has an Oshkosh announcement for something better than the G5?
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 9:34am |
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No G5 competitor announcement from us. We will be looking at integrating with the G5 in the next software release. It appears that they use a similar protocol to the G500/600 that we already support so in theory, it should be straight forward.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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comancheguy
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Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 12:51pm |
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Great news! Well done!
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bcool
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Posted: 01 Aug 2017 at 2:28pm |
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I spoke with an Avidyne rep at Oshkosh last week & he said the G5 should be certified to work with the IFD540/550s in October, or whenever the next release of the operating system comes out.
That would be great so I can stop throwing money at my still non-functioning King HSI :) |
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jwjenks
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Posted: 02 Aug 2017 at 2:28pm |
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I have an IFD 550 and just getting ready to put in a G5 I got at oshkosh. What's wrong with sending the GPS RS232 info from pin #56 into the G5?
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JWJ
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mmozur
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Posted: 16 Aug 2017 at 3:24pm |
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AviSimpson, is this in the works for the upcoming release? Matt
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 9:01am |
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That is the current plan. We just received the G5 so until we can get a few test cycles on it, we won't know if that plan will hold true.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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mmozur
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Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 10:16am |
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That's great news - thanks!
I'll keep my fingers crossed :) |
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Stiletto1
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Posted: 19 Aug 2017 at 9:20pm |
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In planning upgrades to my own panel, this subject raises a question I have regarding STC's. If one component does not list another as an approved interface, IE: the G5 STC does not list the IFD as an approved GPS source, would such an installation be "legal" if the IFD STC does include an interface to the G5? |
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C310C
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DavidBunin
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Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 9:53am |
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Some STCs include wording to the effect that it is up to the A&P/IA doing the installation to ensure that the STC does not interfere with any other installed STC.
The textbook example would be an STC that installs high compression cylinders with an STC that installs a high-flow exhaust system. Either one by itself is approved and tested, but the combination of the two was never put through a certification test. An engine with both upgrades could potentially exceed the cooling system's capabilities (or push up against some other operational boundary). Naturally, electronics are a bit different, but the certification process is optimized for mechanical things, not for electronics. |
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Flying_Monkey
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Posted: 05 Sep 2017 at 8:09pm |
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Any progress on this. A few of us are in a position to pull the trigger on G5s but holding off until 100% sure we can legally use with the 540.
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M20Kid
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Posted: 05 Sep 2017 at 9:22pm |
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I had this same issue when my standby attitude indicator failed. Since the GarMonster was not interested in working with Avidyne I chose to go with Sandia. It's a solid unit that does not require any GPS interface so there's no issue with compatibility. Of course, the Sandia doesn't do any nav functions, so it that's what you need then this is not a viable solution.
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skitheo
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Posted: 05 Sep 2017 at 11:02pm |
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Avidyne didn't have an announcement for a G5 competitor, but Dynon sure did! And Dynon prefers Avidyne navigators. Witness how many IFD5x0 are in their promotional photos! |
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 8:54am |
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I'd go Sandia or Dynon, or if you need nav indications and don't mind spending a bit more, the L3.
I have a Sandia Quattro, and it is a solid performer. The other big advantage to the Sandia & L3 is that ALL of their indications are certified, AI, ASI, Alt, VS etc. Only the AI is a certified indication on the Garmin & Dynon.
* Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 06 Sep 2017 at 9:05am |
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Flying_Monkey
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Posted: 08 Sep 2017 at 8:45pm |
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Any update on if this will be in the upcoming release and when that might be?
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oskrypuch
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Posted: 08 Sep 2017 at 10:54pm |
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Avidyne is shutdown until next week some time. (Irma)
* Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 08 Sep 2017 at 11:10pm |
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 11 Sep 2017 at 9:16am |
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No updates to share on this. Initial indications look promising to support it in an upcoming release.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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Flying_Monkey
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Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 7:58pm |
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Thanks for the reply. Will you please let us know if/when you have an estimated date as to when we could expect the G5 to be supported? It will help a few of us make decisions.
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M20J
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Posted: 13 Oct 2017 at 4:12pm |
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I too am hoping to replace my AI and HSI with G5's, assuming the IFD's are compatible. Hopefully they will be supported soon.
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Flying_Monkey
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Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 7:56pm |
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2 moths later and wondering if there are any updates. Lots of people installing dual G5s and with the GFC500 on the horizon I think a lot of people are wondering if they will be able to use their IFDs in this setup.
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:15am |
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No update to share. Once the work is done to ensure this interface works, we will let everyone know what release it will make it in.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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pburger
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Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 12:07pm |
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Does this really require a new software release? or just a revision to the manual? I'm curious because I plan to pop in two G5s next year. Edited by pburger - 10 Nov 2017 at 12:09pm |
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Flying_Monkey
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Posted: 16 Nov 2017 at 2:06am |
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I don't know. Has anyone tried it? Would be an awfully expensive experiment if it doesn't work but I thought I read someone's post who had installed it. I would think it would work but wouldn't be legal... yet. I'm getting kind of impatient waiting though.
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chflyer
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Posted: 16 Nov 2017 at 5:43am |
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I wonder what general expectations are here. Just to give one example, the G5 doesn't have ARINC 429 output. So a dual G5 would also need a GAD29/29B to provide an IFD with air data feed from the G5 HSI. Agreed that the IFD could receive a direct RS232 feed, but I'd be very careful to read the Garmin G5 manual on what data might actually be transferred across it just to ensure that all expectations are met.
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Vince
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nrproces
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Posted: 16 Nov 2017 at 9:06am |
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Ok folks, as I said earlier, I made the mistake of installing two G5's into my 182 in order to rid myself of the vacuum system and it has been a problem. Currently neither of the G5's are operational. My Avionics installer let me know this morning that they are having battery problems. No S**t sherlock, both of mine are absolutely dead. They do not startup, and I can not push the On/Off button to get them to start up. I am t/o'd because at the moment I can't fly and I have places that need to be gone to.
I will let you all know the solution, but until then hold off, on the install, of yours. Edited by nrproces - 16 Nov 2017 at 9:08am |
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Sauce
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AviSimpson
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Posted: 16 Nov 2017 at 9:34am |
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It appears that it will just be a documentation exercise. We will still need to fly it in our test aircraft to confirm it.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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nrproces
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Posted: 17 Nov 2017 at 10:04am |
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Well, G has a workaround for their G5's power issue. Apparently I am not the only one.
Here it is. using an allen wrench appropriatly sized. remove the instrument from the panel, unscrew the two battery screws from the unit. Turn on the essential power to check the instrument for operation, if it turns on the problem is the battery issue. In both of mine I had that exact issue. I guess that they have a software problem to deal with because they said that I was the third guy they worked through it with today. Well at least its not a total bust, but the batterys need to be charged and the only way to do that is fly. What a bummer that will be....LOL |
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Sauce
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compasst
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Posted: 18 Nov 2017 at 7:14am |
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I am happy to report that a dual G5 installation with GMU11 and GAD 29 interfaces perfectly with IFD 540. I have about 10 hours in actual hand flying in actual imc with several approaches to minimum and I am totally happy with the interface. I don’t yet have an auto pilot in my cardinal, but find my accuracy in flying has improved to less than 1/10 of a mile and less than 50 feet over several hours. This is totally because of the G5’s.
In a few days I will be test flying another installation with a 530 W and a century three auto pilot. The GAD 29 is required to to interface and get gps Nav data from a GPS navigator. The GAD 29B is required for non Garman auto pilot.
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Gring
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Posted: 18 Nov 2017 at 8:00am |
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Can you explain this a little? Improved over what? DG and CDI? Analog HSI? I can tell you that my experience with the G5 is that the presentation (ie compass card) is significantly smaller than a King or Century HSI and harder to read.
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pburger
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Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 406 |
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Posted: 18 Nov 2017 at 3:48pm |
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Great news compasst!!
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Flying_Monkey
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Joined: 27 Mar 2017 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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Posted: 18 Nov 2017 at 9:15pm |
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Thanks for posting this report. Hopefully we will get avidyne to do the test flight and update their paperwork soon. |
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ronl wrote: