Glideslope Failure on RNAV/LPV

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   Did a practice RNAV/LPV approach on Sunday and had a glideslope failure in the middle of the glidepath, at around 1000 ft AGL. 

Details:

- Entegra with 2xIFD440 and DFC90
- Flew standard RNAV GPS procedure to EDMS (Germany)
- Had a green LPV indication on both navigators (crossfill is activated)
- Flew by hand with FD ON
- Was exactly on virtual glidepath when Glideslope indicator on PFD diseappeared
- Two seconds later there was a yellow "glideslope not available" warning on the PFD for about 3 seconds
- Localizer indication stayed up and PFD said FD NAV APPR
- Green LPV indication stayed on on both IFDs, no warning on the IFDs
- 1 minute later the GS indicator came back and stayed on until landing

This video was started ten seconds after the GS indication failed. It comes up at 1:42 again.

https://youtu.be/tsv4ncGGYG4

Any idea what happened?

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D-EACY Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 29 Dec 2018 Location: Munich Status: Offline Points: 96	Post Options Post Reply Quote D-EACY Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Glideslope Failure on RNAV/LPV Posted: 20 Oct 2020 at 5:21am
	Did a practice RNAV/LPV approach on Sunday and had a glideslope failure in the middle of the glidepath, at around 1000 ft AGL. Details: - Entegra with 2xIFD440 and DFC90 - Flew standard RNAV GPS procedure to EDMS (Germany) - Had a green LPV indication on both navigators (crossfill is activated) - Flew by hand with FD ON - Was exactly on virtual glidepath when Glideslope indicator on PFD diseappeared - Two seconds later there was a yellow "glideslope not available" warning on the PFD for about 3 seconds - Localizer indication stayed up and PFD said FD NAV APPR - Green LPV indication stayed on on both IFDs, no warning on the IFDs - 1 minute later the GS indicator came back and stayed on until landing This video was started ten seconds after the GS indication failed. It comes up at 1:42 again. https://youtu.be/tsv4ncGGYG4 Any idea what happened?
	2006 SR22-G2 DFC90 IFD440

AviSteve Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2244	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviSteve Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Oct 2020 at 10:22am
	We would need to see the Event, Flight, and System logs to know for sure. You can either go through tech support or send them directly to me.
	Steve Lindsley Avidyne Engineering

D-EACY Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 29 Dec 2018 Location: Munich Status: Offline Points: 96	Post Options Post Reply Quote D-EACY Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Oct 2020 at 5:19pm
	Do you mean the IFD logs? I can send those to you, although i got 2 exchange units from Bryan Kahl 3 weeks ago after the original ones took a long time to lock on to GPS. I will first test the system again tomorrow. Is it normal that the LPV label stayed on even after i lost the GS indication? PS: Can somebody please watch the video I posted above and tell me what they think about the indications on the PFD and the IFD? Why does "LPV" stay on after the GS failed? And shouldn't there be a "GS" in the PFD status line when the GS is on (after 1:42) Here it is what it looked like with the 430W. https://youtu.be/ArL9fLRsnIc Edited by D-EACY - 21 Oct 2020 at 3:22am
	2006 SR22-G2 DFC90 IFD440

D-EACY Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 29 Dec 2018 Location: Munich Status: Offline Points: 96	Post Options Post Reply Quote D-EACY Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Oct 2020 at 10:45am
	... looks like the system is ok after all! Did 2 more practice approaches, one coupled, one with the FD - all worked flawlessly! Is it possible that it was only a momentary WAAS outage? But why wasn‘t the approach downgraded on the IFD? Edited by D-EACY - 21 Oct 2020 at 1:33pm
	2006 SR22-G2 DFC90 IFD440

AviSteve Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2244	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviSteve Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Oct 2020 at 11:27am
	Yes, I'm sure is was a momentary, localized event. My guess is that the VPL from the GPS exceeded the VAL. That could be confirmed by looking through the logs. I would have expected the VDI on the MFD to be flagged instead of going away, though.
	Steve Lindsley Avidyne Engineering

D-EACY Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 29 Dec 2018 Location: Munich Status: Offline Points: 96	Post Options Post Reply Quote D-EACY Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Oct 2020 at 1:34pm
	Thanks for now! I guess it's ok. But shouldn't the IFD show "LNAV" instead of "LPV" is the GS fails? That's the one thing that confused me.
	2006 SR22-G2 DFC90 IFD440

AviSteve Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2244	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviSteve Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Oct 2020 at 2:15pm
	No, it will continue to display LPV, but the vertical deviation should be flagged. It's like an ILS when the GS is out.
	Steve Lindsley Avidyne Engineering

D-EACY Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 29 Dec 2018 Location: Munich Status: Offline Points: 96	Post Options Post Reply Quote D-EACY Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Oct 2020 at 3:18am
	How is it possible that these labels didn't come up on the PFD? Is it a sw version thing? Setup? Aas I said I had a yellow "glideslope not available" message in the status line of the PFD ... but that is not documented anywhere.
	2006 SR22-G2 DFC90 IFD440

AviSteve Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2244	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviSteve Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Oct 2020 at 9:45am
	I looked through the EXP5000 Pilots Guide and you are correct that there was no mention of the "glideslope not available" message. I did find that the description of the VDI said it is displayed when "GPS vertical deviation data has been received". That's consistent with the behavior you documented. Though admittedly undocumented, the yellow message provides further notification that vertical guidance is unavailable.
	Steve Lindsley Avidyne Engineering

D-EACY Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 29 Dec 2018 Location: Munich Status: Offline Points: 96	Post Options Post Reply Quote D-EACY Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Oct 2020 at 4:25am
	Thank you for clarifying! As I said, two more practice approaches showed that the system works perfectly, so it could have been a WAAS outage after all. I do find it interesting that the IFD will not downgrade the approach to LNAV if the GS fails, I was sure it would.
	2006 SR22-G2 DFC90 IFD440

Melohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2013 Location: PHNL Status: Offline Points: 140	Post Options Post Reply Quote Melohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Jan 2023 at 2:23pm
	Sorry to tag onto an older thread, but I believe this is related to the behavior I’m seeing on my newly installed IFD 440. It would be helpful to understand what the VPL and HPL limits are on the IFD 440, and what it does when these limits are reached. In my case, the IFD seems to be cruising along just fine, keeping horizontal position and track, and because it has no VDI, it’s not possible to determine if it’s temporarily losing that lock, although I suspect both are just fine. If it is a satellite issue, it would make sense that I won’t see it all the time, so I’ll keep trying to see what shows up. If there are any logs that would help, I’m happy to provide them. From the Facebook group: I saw a problem today with my new IFD 440 installation driving an Avidyne EX5000 PFD and MFD in a Cirrus. Enroute, the IFD worked perfectly as a GPS source. Last flight I flew an ILS approach, which also worked perfectly. Today I tried an RNAV approach and a Visual approach, the latter using the new 10.3 feature. On the leg before the IAF, I saw the MFD lose the flight plan for about a second. The flight plan remained steady on the IFD display, as did navigation. After intercepting the final approach course, the track remained steady, but the GPS glide slope did the same thing on the PFD, blinking away for about a second, and then coming back to life. No errors on the IFD. Later I did a Visual approach. Same thing, the glide slope disappeared on the PFD for about a second, and then came back. Any ideas? I would have initially thought that maybe it was a pin issue, but to happen to both the MFD and the PFD seems like two different paths. Likewise, the glide slope being driven by the ILS was rock solid, while the GPS glide slope was not. Note, I have the original GNS tray, if that makes any difference. Thanks!

Melohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2013 Location: PHNL Status: Offline Points: 140	Post Options Post Reply Quote Melohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Feb 2023 at 12:09am
	AVISteve; do you want to look at these logs? Edited by Melohn - 12 Feb 2023 at 4:20pm

AviSteve Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2244	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviSteve Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Feb 2023 at 9:49pm
	Nah, IFD logs won't be helpful since they don't show the contents of the 429 stream, which is really what we would need to diagnose the interface. In the absence of that, video would be the next best thing.
	Steve Lindsley Avidyne Engineering

FlyBill99 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 07 Aug 2020 Location: Pittsburgh Status: Offline Points: 19	Post Options Post Reply Quote FlyBill99 Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 6:21pm
	we had a similar problem. 2007 SR20, dual IFD440, DFC 90 EX5000 PFD/MFD. IFD440 with 10.3.0. Flying an LPV approach entire flight plan disappears from MFD intermittently, all magenta line guidance never displays on PFD HSI like holds, fixes. Vertical guidance drops from PFD inside the FAF but autopilot continues to fly correctly. Long time issue coinciding with installation of 10.3. Kept being told it was wiring. Didn’t make sense because flying direct to a fix did not have any issues. We installed 10.3.1.2 yesterday. Solved all issues. Edited by FlyBill99 - 25 Feb 2023 at 6:23pm