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1090 Receiver |
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LANCE ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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Avidyne at Sun N Fun said no SkyTrax or MLB200 (Dual Band) in the future
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brou0040 ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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If they don't want to produce one, it would be nice to at least be compatible with another dual receiver so we can display traffic and weather on the IFD.
I guess this becomes a 10.2.1 request then rather than a receiver request. Edited by brou0040 - 14 Apr 2017 at 5:29pm |
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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In my humble opinion, I think that's a mistake. |
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AviSimpson ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
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With 10.2, we are compatible with the GTX345 which is dual-band. Additionally, L3 has listed our IFD as a compatible display for their Lynx, which is also dual-band.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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AviSimpson ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
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I wouldn't rule anything out in the future.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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Thinwing ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2016 Location: Ksac Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Hi there,is there an stc for Garmin es-330 or gtx345 with IFD 540/440 with 10.2 yet?
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Gary T ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 13 Nov 2013 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 80 |
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From the Avidyne IFD540 features web page: ADS-B Interface
What is a Skytrax 200/ 210 ???
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Gary-T
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brou0040 ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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AviSimpson, thanks for the heads up about those units, but this thread is about dual band receivers. Support for those units and not a dual receiver makes those of us who purchased an AXP340 wish we bought a product from one of your competitors...
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bellanca1730a ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 04 Jul 2013 Location: Tampa Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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+1
Here's hoping ... and for sooner rather than later. Edited by bellanca1730a - 18 Apr 2017 at 6:38am |
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Sean Andrews
Bellanca Super Viking |
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AviSimpson ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
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Yes, it's the 10.2 STC.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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SkyTrax 100 is the receive-only box for ADS-B traffic and weather on 978MHz. SkyTrax 200 is a transmitter and receiver (UAT) for ADS-B Out and In on 978MHz, using an external GPS (IFD/GNS/GTN) as the position source. SkyTrax 210 is a transmitter and receiver (UAT) for ADS-B Out and In on 978MHz, using a built-in GPS as the position source. In other words, this is a stand-alone unit. The 200 and 210 are not available yet. Some of us still have hope (faded, though it may be) that all of these products will have an upgrade path to receive dual-band someday. But for now they are 978-only receivers. |
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AviSimpson ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
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The SkyTrax200 & 210 will not be coming out in the aforementioned form. There is little to no demand in the market for a 978 Out transceiver.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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MysticCobra ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Status: Offline Points: 656 |
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??? Huh. My preference would have been for a 978 Out transceiver, for the air-to-air capability with my fellow little-guys. I "settled" for the 1090ES because it was the cleanest solution available at the time I was doing a major panel project.
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TurboPA30 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Sep 2010 Location: 27XS Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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It is harder and harder to stay a fanboy: Garmin came out with the 345, which is really the perfect box for the ADS-B mandate. I had sold my GTX33 and GTX330 that I had in my planes because I decided to go the IFD540 route, so it was only the AXPs that worked at that time, and there was no information that this would change. Now I lose the MLB700 weather, so I have to buy an MLB100, again with less capability. Cost of the AXP & MLB100 is already higher than the Garmin 345, with less capability and a higher install cost/effort. And as the icing on the cake, the 345 now works with the IFD540, giving better capability than the house brand stuff. Just shows that us early adopters get burned, every time. End Rant.
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George P ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2017 Location: Big Horn, WY Status: Offline Points: 45 |
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I replaced my 530W with an IFD540 this month and will be going in in June to have a Garmin 345 installed in my Twin Comanche. I would have preferred to go with Avidyne ADS-B equipment for the sake of future compatibility, but the Garmin makes much more sense at this point. The Garmin has many more features than the Avidyne does including tablet display of weather and traffic and dual band ADS-B in, it is a one box solution which simplifies installation, and the cost is lower than the combined cost of an Avidyne transponder and their Skytrax100 box. Seems to me that Avidyne needs to take a serious look at their ADS-B products and pricing if they are going to be competitive.
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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I agree that the 345 is a slick product. Definitely second-generation thinking.
If every receiver was dual-band capable then it wouldn't matter what band we use for ADS-B Out. (And there are already frequency saturation issues with 1090MHz.) My experience has been that the ADS-R function of the network is not reliable enough where it really matters (in the traffic pattern at most small airports). So in order to "see and" I want a dual band receiving capability. But in order to "be seen" I would need to have a dual-band transmitter, which as far as I know is not offered or proposed by any manufacturer, or I would need two transmitters which some airplanes seem to have. Just thinking out loud.
Edited by DavidBunin - 28 Apr 2017 at 2:29pm |
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oskrypuch ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Well, there is a TAS solution available. Pricier (perhaps too pricey now for the US market), but a much more complete solution, and it one day will have ADS-B IN from 1090 and ADS-R built-in. My TAS605 is a real performer, and you can send traffic data to any panel mount device from it, ASPEN, Avidyne, Garmin etc. * Orest |
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ddgates ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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And it looks like maybe there might be some movement on the -A project. It was posted on another thread on this board by Avidyne that they were commiting more resources to get the -A piece tested and certified. One can hope anyway. Quite a few customers are waiting for this. |
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David Gates
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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That does NOTHING to help other pilots/aircraft see me. Imagine that the other traffic only has a UAT installed. That guy won't see me unless I am transmitting on 978MHz. (In this scenario, we are both in the pattern at an airport outside/below network coverage altitude.) Of course, if I have a dual-band receiver that equipment will detect his target and display it for me. But his equipment would not detect me if I only broadcast on 1090MHz. My point is that "see and be seen" contains a serious flaw in a dual-band environment. And dual-band receivers only solve half of the problem. ADS-R solves the problem at altitude, but most so-called "mid-air" collisions don't really happen in the middle of the air. They happen mostly in the traffic pattern or on short final when two aircraft attempt to use one runway. Exactly the place where the network drops you off and says, "Thanks, see you next time." Of course, most of those places are well-outside rule airspace. And I am starting to get the impression that there are more "rancher pilots" than the FAA thought. Those pilots simply won't equip for ADS-B because they don't use rule airspace. These are the same guys who exercise their option not to use a radio to announce their position, and their airplane probably doesn't have any kind of traffic display system in the first place. I guess I'm just "not feeling it" this morning. Sorry guys. |
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Paul ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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None of this stuff will protect you against the NORDO J3 that pulls out onto the runway when you are on (really) short final, as happened to my wife at an airport under Boston's Mode C veil. The FAA says "see and avoid" and we need to do that.
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mccdeuce ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 27 Apr 2017 Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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I really do think it is important for the SkyTrax to be upgraded to dual band on the ADSB-In - the Avidyne transponder is 1090 after all....
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n7ifr ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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Agree! It would also help to finally have the long promised TAS-"A" which would at least display both active TAS IN as well as ADSB 980 -In, but still would be nice to have the option with SkyTrax100 to upgrade to add 1090 IN with our squitter 1090-OUT.. Tom W.
Edited by n7ifr - 02 Jun 2017 at 5:56pm |
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ddgates ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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supposedly a software defined radio exists within the existing Navworx/Skytrax box which could activate a 1090 receive function.
However, Navworx appears to have its own issues. Such is the downside of purchasing "rebranded" technology. Tom, I agree with you about the TAS-A disgrace.
Edited by ddgates - 02 Jun 2017 at 6:15pm |
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David Gates
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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While I agree with the desire to have the SkyTrax be a dual-band receiver, it really doesn't matter what band transmitter is installed. The ADS-B Out message format includes bits that inform the network of the aircraft's receiving capabilities. So when your airplane advertises itself as being capable of receiving on 978 only, it doesn't matter if that advertisement goes out on 978 or 1090. The advent of dual-band receivers did not occur until years after the final equipment specifications were set and published. The people who wrote the specs did not anticipate that market move, so the network is specifically designed to handle single-band receivers. I expect that in another decade or two, the marketplace will be populated by third-generation ADS-B products, and that virtually all of those will include dual-band receivers. Unfortunately, we all can't wait to equip. If we could wait (if there wasn't a 2020 mandate) then there would never even have been first-generation products. David Bunin |
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n7ifr ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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When I am flying out in the boonies (like SW Colorado) out of range of the ground-based repeaters, as I often do, the only way I would ever see 1090 ADSB targets would be with a "dual band" SkyTrax - hence the TAS for active transponder reception. Tom W.
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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True, but the ADS-B network (and mandate) isn't designed for you or me. It is designed for air traffic control, and they don't care about uncontrolled airspace.
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bellanca1730a ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 04 Jul 2013 Location: Tampa Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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Well, "boonies" isn't synonymous with uncontrolled, and for the purposes of this thread (at least my own selfish ones) I'd rather Avidyne see more interest than disinterest in a dual-band solution so they have business incentive to pursue it. Edited by bellanca1730a - 04 Jun 2017 at 1:48am |
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Sean Andrews
Bellanca Super Viking |
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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I'm totally with you on that front. I WANT to add dual-band receiving software to my SkyTrax unit. I know the hardware is already there. It's just a matter of motivating NavWorx to make it an engineering and certification priority.
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ddgates ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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David B: IDK, seems like Navworx is underwater with magical thinking. Doesn't some of the "motivation" need to come from Avidyne? I assume you are saying there is a software defined radio asset capable of 1090 within the existing Skytrax box?
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David Gates
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TurboPA30 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Sep 2010 Location: 27XS Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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I have my trusty TAS610, which one day will be a 1090 receiver...... So I am not too enthusiastic on the MLB becoming a dual receiver box. I'd rather have it retail for $500. What I however found is that with every additional box, there is significant additional install error / wiring issue risk. So I'd love to have as few boxes as possible. So really the MLB100 should have been built into the IFD540. Makes more sense than the AHRS of the 550, especially as it is stand-alone.
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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I haven't seen a circuit schematic, so I can't comment on the physical embodiment. But I have been told that there is receiving circuitry on the boards that are tuned for 1090MHz. Also, NavWorx makes a device called a TransMON which links their UAT to an existing transponder. The TransMON contains a 1090 receiver/decoder. So they obviously know how to make a receiver.
The issue is not receiving the frequency. The issue is receiving the ADS-B data and piecing it together. When a UAT transmitter broadcasts, it spits out all of the data at once. When a 1090 unit broadcasts, it only pumps out part of the data stream on each bust. A 1090 receiver has to capture and store all of the 1090 broadcasts within range, and then reassemble the data for each target in order to form a display set. That's why I say it's a software problem, not a hardware problem. Certainly some of the motivation at NavWorx needs to come from Avidyne (and it does). I also bug them about it each time I see them. Not sure how to translate "underwater with magical thinking". NavWorx is doing what they can with their FAA oversight office. That relationship can only be pushed so far, so fast. So I do have some sympathy when they tell me they can't climb that mountain with the FAA right now. But it doesn't stop me from bringing it up each time. |
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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I understand conceptually what you mean. A true all-in-one piece of avionics equipment. But I don't see how Avidyne could produce a unit that is a combination navigator-transponder while still having it be a slide-in replacement for a GNS530. David
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ddgates ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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meaning a number of new product announcements which are questionably deliverable. Adding one more (albeit rebadged) has even less probability of fulfillment. |
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David Gates
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n7ifr ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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Regarding Dual band ADSB receivers (and 1090 Out), I see Lynx 9000 (+) and GDL88, but I would love to know if either of these or both are compatible to display on our Avidyne 540's?
Lynx is compatible with Aspen, and wouldn't it be nice if the Lynx would also talk to our 540's - finally all toys playing in the same sandbox... Tom W.
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ddgates ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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And now their troubles include an AD. Published today. AD2017-11-11
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David Gates
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n7ifr ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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That's a pretty harsh AD for NavWorx. Assume it does not apply to our SkyTrax100.
Tom W.
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AviSimpson ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
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SkyTrax100 does not use an internal GPS. It takes the GPS information from the IFDs. So it is still unaffected by this AD.
Edited by AviSimpson - 08 Jun 2017 at 9:21am |
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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The AD doesn't seem to accept that the unit can be married to an external GPS (although they indicate that an AMOC will be available to allow such). The best (most technically correct) answer for the SkyTrax100 is that this part number is not listed on the AD. So the AD does not apply to these units. David Bunin |
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DavidBunin ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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Actually, I think it is about as cooperative as I have ever witnessed from the FAA. 1) They waited to publish the AD until after NavWorx had submitted the certification data package for the new units. 2) They gave the AD an effectivity date that allows the FAA enough time to approve the submitted data. 3) They gave enough compliance time for operators to perform an orderly upgrade. 4) They said that there would be AMOC coverage available for solutions not currently listed on the AD. I have never seen them be that nice to a manufacturer. Sounds like they reconsidered their original position on the topic quite a bit. David Bunin |
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ddgates ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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I don't know that "cooperative" and regulatory fit in the same thought. All in all, this will generate costs to Navworx' customers (as posted on the Navworx web site), and probably tarnish future sales. I hope they survive. Edited by ddgates - 11 Jun 2017 at 11:43am |
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David Gates
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Stiletto1 ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Aug 2017 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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As I have been educating myself on the ins and outs of ADSB and active TAS, I can't help but keep coming back to the same place. Since the ADSB system will not relay primary (non-transponder equipped) radar targets back to you and active TAS can't interrogate a transponder that is not there, neither system will ever see NORDO aircraft. If you are inside radar coverage ATC can and will advise you of any traffic, including primary radar returns on NORDO aircraft, and the ADSB out mandate will further ATC's view of "equipped" aircraft outside radar coverage areas where ground stations can receive data. Out in the "boonies" where you need a traffic awareness system most, where radar coverage and ATC services may not be available, below 3000' where ADSB ground station coverage may be a bit intermittent, and where the bulk of the NORDO aircraft are operating, you won't have a complete picture with either system, and neither will ATC. If you are worried about these small dark areas of not very high traffic congestion that may remain outside the view of ATC after 2020, I'm not sure what can be done about it until EVERY aircraft is required to broadcast its' GPS position to any other aircraft that would equip to receive and display the information. If that IS where we are headed, then it would seem to me that Active TAS would not offer any value over a dual band ADSB-In solution. If that IS NOT where we are headed, then I'm not so sure either ADSB-in or active TAS offers much improvement over what ATC will be able to provide via traffic advisory for free by 2020. There may be that rare occasion where air to air ADSB might prevent a collision when operating below 3000', where the ADSB ground station eye's of ATC may be somewhat limited, but man that's getting down into the weeds. Add to the above that midair collisions are very rare in the first place, even more so in the so called "boonies", and latest accident data suggests that no traffic awareness system would have helped to prevent the few that did occur, and well, I'm just not seeing much bang for my buck worrying about ADSB-in traffic - especially not active TAS for an additional eight grand and up. Having said that, if I was Avidyne I would be getting a dual band ADSB-in Skytrax with internal Bluetooth on the market, and PRONTO! Include the ability to remotely control the ADSB-out transponder directly via the IFD100 without having to go through the IFD5xx/4xx WIFI/BT connection, and an internal WAAS as backup should the Primary IFD go dark - all of the above in one remotely mounted box no bigger than a pack of cigarettes for under 3 grand, thank you! :) Edited by Stiletto1 - 04 Sep 2017 at 7:26am |
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Gring ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 30 Dec 2011 Location: Kingston, NY Status: Offline Points: 731 |
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It's not just in the boonies, I fly a float plane with no transponder at all. I've been known to transit the NY class B legally without it, and I fly at many different altitudes from down low at 500ft to 6-7000ft. I'll never put ADSB in this plane, nor will I bother with a transponder.
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Stiletto1 ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Aug 2017 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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I hear ya. I wouldn't equip some airplanes for similar reasons either. And when operating in the airspace you describe, ATC can at least paint you with ground radar - and while in Bravo, ATC can get verbal altitude information from you - both of which is something neither ADSB or Active TAS can do. Fact is there is very little airspace that does not have radar coverage, and even less that does not or won't have ADSB ground station coverage. So, as long as ATC services, including VFR flight following, remain available, I guess I'm just not seeing much bang for my on-board traffic awareness buck. However, I will equip my traveling plane with an ADSB Transponder when I find the right interface that offers a remote one box solution and additional value as backup NAV source (internal WAAS and BT connection to an IPad app required). Ironic, when I can't think of any airspace that I have or will operate in when going X-country where ATC services would not have me covered - but on-board weather would be nice. |
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C310C
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bobcain ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 26 Aug 2010 Location: 7K8 Status: Offline Points: 37 |
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I didn't see that you received any response on this. But a little on this line- Does anyone know if the IFD can provide position for the GDL88 like it can the GTX345?
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AviSimpson ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
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The GDL88 approval is coming in a future release. We had some issues with it during the late stages of the 10.2 approval and had to pull the support.
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Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
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Ibraham ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21 May 2016 Location: KHWO Status: Offline Points: 357 |
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AviSimpson,
Any update on when the Avidyne EX5000 MFD will be able to display weather and traffic from the Avidyne Skytrax 100? I guess that should be a priority for Avidyne as it is listed as being compatible. That was the whole reason we installed the Avidyne Skytrax and the AXP340 in favor of the Garmin GTX345 that would have been a much simpler and cheaper install, with more capabilities.
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brou0040 ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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Kelly,
Any news on additional ADS-B hardware? I was told at a trade-show that Avidyne was working on ADS-B products to hopefully announce late 2017. Is there anything still in the works? More specifically, I have the AXP340 for ADS-B out and would like a receiver where I can display dual band ADS-B traffic and weather on the IFD-540. Is there a way or plans to get this capability?
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Ibraham ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21 May 2016 Location: KHWO Status: Offline Points: 357 |
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The Garmin GTX 345 has a 1090 ADS-S out and dual ADS-S B in traffic, with "Spoken audio alerts call out potential flight path conflicts (“Traffic, 10 O’Clock, same altitude, two miles)” It has taken over 3 years and still no traffic display on the Avidyne's own MFD. Now with release 10.2.1, Avidyne removed the aural traffic alerts form the IFD's which was available with release 10.2 (Was listed in the 10.1 pilot guide but not actually implemented till 10.2) Can Avidyne explain the purpose of paying for the Skytrax 100 receiver and having no traffic alerts??
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n7ifr ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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Agree - I was holding out hope also for this unit as allows for Inout of active TAS traffic with dual ADSB IN. So, the GTX345 seemed to be a viable way to accomplish this, but sounds like on the IFD540 the UAT Icons with speed vectors, etc will not display... Not sure if this is data channel dependent though - Wonder if by using the GTX RS232 output to port to the IFD540... might acomplish this...IFD currently does allow UAT traffic display from the Skytrax100 (980 only) on the RS232 input. Tom W. |
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