FPL issue.

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   Today I was flying the VOR-A into KLZZ.  I had been cleared for the VOR-A approach and was flying from AMUSE to AGJ when approach then cancelled my clearance and told me to hold at AGJ.  
I tried putting in AGJ between AMUSE and AGJ (before the gap) but it wouldn't accept that (I assume because AGJ was my next fix already) and so then I tried putting in a hold after AGJ but I couldn't do that, maybe because it is part of a procedure.  How then should this be done?  I ended up scrolling up on the FPL page and putting AGJ right after my origin and then placing a hold there.  Is there a better way to do this?  

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Speedbird1 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 16 Mar 2020 Location: New Braunfels Status: Offline Points: 66	Post Options Post Reply Quote Speedbird1 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: FPL issue. Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 9:18pm
	Today I was flying the VOR-A into KLZZ. I had been cleared for the VOR-A approach and was flying from AMUSE to AGJ when approach then cancelled my clearance and told me to hold at AGJ. I tried putting in AGJ between AMUSE and AGJ (before the gap) but it wouldn't accept that (I assume because AGJ was my next fix already) and so then I tried putting in a hold after AGJ but I couldn't do that, maybe because it is part of a procedure. How then should this be done? I ended up scrolling up on the FPL page and putting AGJ right after my origin and then placing a hold there. Is there a better way to do this?

dmtidler Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 617	Post Options Post Reply Quote dmtidler Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 10:19pm
	Holds cannot be inserted on an approach procedure at and beyond the FAF and in this case, the IAF as it is the basis for the procedure turn. In this particular example, you may use the missed approach hold over the AGJ VOR to comply with your ATC clearance; however, the IFD will not permit a direct-to any point in the missed approach including the missed approach instance of AGJ until the missed approach is activated (either manually or automatically). If Auto Enable Missed is "On" for the current user, activate the leg to MAGHY (the leg after the FAF), then perform a direct-to the missed approach instance of AGJ. The hold can be modified if the holding instructions are different than the pre-loaded missed approach hold. If Auto Enable Missed is "Off" for the current user, activate the leg to MAGHY (the leg after the FAF), then activate Enable Missed at LSK 4, then perform a direct-to the missed approach instance of AGJ. As above, the hold can be modified if the holding instructions are different than the pre-loaded missed approach hold. BTW - if the missed approach hold is modified, it will need to be corrected back to match the published missed approach when the loaded approach is initiated or a reload of the approach procedure at the appropriate time will also reset the missed approach hold. Edited by dmtidler - 05 Apr 2021 at 10:20pm

Speedbird1 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 16 Mar 2020 Location: New Braunfels Status: Offline Points: 66	Post Options Post Reply Quote Speedbird1 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 8:36am
	Thank you. quite the task when you are just about to fly a PT!

dmtidler Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 617	Post Options Post Reply Quote dmtidler Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 10:20am
	It is not as involved as it may seem especially if Auto Missed Enable is set to "On". Proceeding to a missed approach point or hold before the IFD reaches the FAF can easily be practiced on the IFD Trainer app and is a useful skill to have. For instance, take your KLZZ VOR-A example. If you were non-radar approaching AGJ on say the 340 radial, a PT would be required; however, the IFD would somewhat clumsily do a course reversal at AGJ to get on the outbound leg to perform the 45 / 225 depicted PT course reversal. In this scenario, flying a racetrack PT may be more desirable and is perfectly legal. Since you cannot build a hold at the AGJ FAF, you could heading select or manually fly a racetrack PT and perform an Activate Leg to the FAF to intercept the final approach course. Alternatively, you could use the already built missed approach hold for this approach as depicted as a legal racetrack PT course reversal for this approach. When direct AGJ and cleared for the approach, you could activate the missed approach and proceed direct to the missed approach instance of AGJ. After flying the hold entry and once again inbound to AGJ, perform a direct-to the FAF instance of AGJ and continue the approach.

Speedbird1 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 16 Mar 2020 Location: New Braunfels Status: Offline Points: 66	Post Options Post Reply Quote Speedbird1 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 11:45am
	Thank you very much. This is good to know. I guess it's all learning.

Speedbird1 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 16 Mar 2020 Location: New Braunfels Status: Offline Points: 66	Post Options Post Reply Quote Speedbird1 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 12:55pm
	As a follow up. Looking at VOR 13 into KYKN. Assuming you were heading to YKN VOR on Radial 330 (inbound 050), how would you perform the course reversal (assume ATC had not cleared you for a straight-in?

dmtidler Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 617	Post Options Post Reply Quote dmtidler Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 1:57pm
	Looking at the VOR 13 into KYKN, the choices seem to be similar. In this case, coming in on the 330 radial, the IFD will want to turn to the PT side of the outbound course during the course reversal to get established on the outbound course. There would be plenty of room to get established on the outbound course before getting to the IFD depicted PT because the depicted PT is quite a ways from the YKN VOR in order to allow for a descent from at or above 3000' in the PT to at or above 1980' at GARCU. Alternatively, a manual racetrack pattern could be flown or the missed approach hold could be utilized for a racetrack PT as described above. In this instance, if I were to use the missed approach hold, I would alter its length to 7 NM in order to make sure the inbound turn is outside of the FF13 FAF IFD waypoint and to keep the aircraft within 10 NM of the YKN VOR. As soon as the inbound turn was complete, perform an Activate Leg to the FF13 FAF IFD waypoint and continue the approach. Edited by dmtidler - 06 Apr 2021 at 1:57pm

Speedbird1 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 16 Mar 2020 Location: New Braunfels Status: Offline Points: 66	Post Options Post Reply Quote Speedbird1 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 8:50am
	Thanks, makes sense. Incidentally, what does the FF13 refer to? I'm assume it is a fix Avidyne create based on something!?

dmtidler Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 617	Post Options Post Reply Quote dmtidler Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 10:02am
	The way the KYKN VOR 13 approach is designed, there is not a geographically defined FAF. It appears Jeppesen added the FF13 fix as a pseudo FAF that is geographically defined and looks to be placed to allow a normal approximately 3 degree descent from 3000' to make the GARCU crossing at 1980'. Edited by dmtidler - 07 Apr 2021 at 10:02am