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540 doesn't sequence during SID

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scott View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 12:45am
Tonight during my IPC I loaded the LIVR1.ALTAM SID from my home airport of LVK. The SID consists of flying runway heading until 1200', then a R turn to 020, and intercept V244 and fly to ALTAM. Here's what the FMS page looks like when the SID is loaded:


The problem is that after I take off I reached 1200' well before reaching the point where the 540 thinks I should turn right to 020 so it doesn't sequence. I reached 1200' and made my right turn but the "fly heading 255" (runway heading) leg still remained active. I highlighted the "fly 020 leg" (the intercept leg) and looked for the "activate leg" LSK but it was not there. I tried pushing the Direct button but all that did is take me direct to ALTAM which is not the procedure. The 540 never did sequence past that first leg. I had to just eyeball it on the map until reaching V244 and then I pushed direct ALTAM. I had a similar issue on the TRUCK4.TRUCK departure from KTRK. But that time the 540 issued an alert telling me to manually sequence form the runway heading leg to the intercept leg. Strange behavior IMO. Anyone know why it does this? More importantly how do I get it to sequence properly?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 1:10am
Also, one more question. Is there a way to activate the first leg (the fly runway heading leg) before the takeoff roll? I tried but it would only let me activate direct to ALTAM. The runway heading leg did activate on the roll but it's kind of disconcerting having no guidance on the HSI until you are rolling. It would be a lot better if you could have the HSI providing guidance before you take the active. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 1:24am
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

Tonight during my IPC I loaded the LIVR1.ALTAM SID from my home airport of LVK. The SID consists of flying runway heading until 1200', then a R turn to 020, and intercept V244 and fly to ALTAM. Here's what the FMS page looks like when the SID is loaded:


The problem is that after I take off I reached 1200' well before reaching the point where the 540 thinks I should turn right to 020 so it doesn't sequence. I reached 1200' and made my right turn but the "fly heading 255" (runway heading) leg still remained active. I highlighted the "fly 020 leg" (the intercept leg) and looked for the "activate leg" LSK but it was not there. I tried pushing the Direct button but all that did is take me direct to ALTAM which is not the procedure. The 540 never did sequence past that first leg. I had to just eyeball it on the map until reaching V244 and then I pushed direct ALTAM. I had a similar issue on the TRUCK4.TRUCK departure from KTRK. But that time the 540 issued an alert telling me to manually sequence form the runway heading leg to the intercept leg. Strange behavior IMO. Anyone know why it does this? More importantly how do I get it to sequence properly?




Check out the note at the top of page 5-4 of the pilot guide and see if that addresses your condition.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 1:28am
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

Also, one more question. Is there a way to activate the first leg (the fly runway heading leg) before the takeoff roll? I tried but it would only let me activate direct to ALTAM. The runway heading leg did activate on the roll but it's kind of disconcerting having no guidance on the HSI until you are rolling. It would be a lot better if you could have the HSI providing guidance before you take the active. 


Yes you can manually activate any leg. Check out the picture on page 2-3 of the pilot guide. If the light blue wrap-around cursor is not already around the point you care about, either touch the leg or use the bottom right knob to select it then press the "Activate Leg" LSK.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 1:50am
AviJake, thanks for responding so quickly. It certainly seems like having altitude input would solve this issue. I know I can figure this out by asking my installer so forgive the question but that altitude information comes form the encoder right? That is going to require more wiring. Isn't there a way to just use GPS altitude as the source?

As for your second post, I don't see the photo you are describing on page 2-3. But I think I know what you mean. When you highlight a waypoint there is a Activate Leg LSK. But I am saying that LSK does not appear when you highlight an incept leg or a fly runway heading leg. It only works when you highlight a fix like an intersection, VOR, etc. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DH82FLYER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 2:56am
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

As for your second post, I don't see the photo you are describing on page 2-3. But I think I know what you mean. When you highlight a waypoint there is a Activate Leg LSK...



The picture is on pg 2-4 in my Pilot Guide, try that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 8:54am
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

AviJake, thanks for responding so quickly. It certainly seems like having altitude input would solve this issue. I know I can figure this out by asking my installer so forgive the question but that altitude information comes form the encoder right? That is going to require more wiring. Isn't there a way to just use GPS altitude as the source?



Yes, it's baro altitude from an encoder or other EFIS altitude source (like an Aspen or Garmin G500) and yes, that would almost certainly require more wiring for you.  GPS alt is not permitted in this case.
 

Originally posted by scott scott wrote:


As for your second post, I don't see the photo you are describing on page 2-3. But I think I know what you mean. When you highlight a waypoint there is a Activate Leg LSK. But I am saying that LSK does not appear when you highlight an incept leg or a fly runway heading leg. It only works when you highlight a fix like an intersection, VOR, etc. 





Hhmm.  I'm overseas currently.  I'll either check that out and get back to you next week or have someone in the lab try that for me in my absence.  I can't remember the behavior in your case with enough clarity to respond off the top of my head.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 9:16am
Speaking of altitude input, I'm still waiting for a response on this:
http://forums.avidyne.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=855&title=mode-c-pressure-altitude-bug-with-ifd540

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 9:25am
OK here's my last question. If I bring baro altitude from an encoder to the 540, will it share with the 440 that I also have in my stack? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 9:30am
Sorry I just read the post from Royski. I also have an AXP 340 which obviously is getting baro altitude from an encoder. Would the normal connection between the AXP 340 and the 540 provide the required altitude information to the 540, assuming that bug is fixed? My point here is I am trying to avoid going back and adding more wires behind the panel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roltman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 10:33am
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

OK here's my last question. If I bring baro altitude from an encoder to the 540, will it share with the 440 that I also have in my stack? 

Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but having simply baro altitude connected won't sequence waypoints.  It must be baro-corrected altitude which requires an Air Data Computer installed in the aircraft. Without one the encoder has no way to know the baro-correction and it is as useful/useless as GPS altitude for waypoint sequencing.  Thus an Aspen, G500/G600 or something like a Sandia SA 7-35 would be needed to be installed to do this.  Otherwise you have to press the LSK button to sequence the waypoint on the SID or MA.

scott -- Yes if you wire up one IFD it'll share it with the other over the Cross-Sync channel.  You can quickly check if you the encoder hooked up already by merely going to the Calculations page and seeing if pressure altitude is populated in there.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 10:57am
Thanks roltman. You answered a big question of mine. It seemed silly to provide uncompensated baro altitude as the basis for sequencing the waypoints as that is way less accurate than GPS altitude. But how does an ADC like the Sandia model provide compensated baro altitude when there is no way to set the altimeter setting? I can see how an Aspen or G600 does that because you are setting the local altimeter setting into the unit. But the Sandia ADC has no way to do that. Unless there is a place to enter the altimeter setting in the 540. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 11:14am
 [/QUOTE]

Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but having simply baro altitude connected won't sequence waypoints.  It must be baro-corrected altitude which requires an Air Data Computer installed in the aircraft. Without one the encoder has no way to know the baro-correction and it is as useful/useless as GPS altitude for waypoint sequencing.  Thus an Aspen, G500/G600 or something like a Sandia SA 7-35 would be needed to be installed to do this.  Otherwise you have to press the LSK button to sequence the waypoint on the SID or MA.


[/QUOTE]

Of course.  My fault.  I had a different project on my mind with encoder answer.  Baro-corrected altitude input the requirement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 11:34am
OK so here's my question then. If you need baro corrected altitude to the 540 in order to automatically sequence waypoints, is there a way to get that besides having an Aspen or G600? An air data computer like the Sandia will still only provide uncorrected altitude because there is no way to set the local altimeter setting into the ADC. It would be no different than a regular encoder. Unless the 540 has a place to enter an altimeter setting so it could calculate it's own corrected altitude based on external uncorrected information. The reason this is so important is that you cannot manually sequence the waypoints unless there is a prompt from the 540. For example, if I highlight the CLIMB TO 1200' waypoint (see pic above) THERE IS NO LSK FOR ACTIVATING LEG OR MANUALLY SEQUENCING TO THAT WAYPOINT. I just tried it on the simulator and same in the real airplane. And in my experience, the 540 does not alway prompt me to sequence. It happened once on a SID from KTRK, but not on a MA or the SID from KLVK. So if the 540 doesn't prompt you, then you're screwed. You have no guidance and there is nothing you can do until you get to a point where you can go direct to a waypoint in the flight plan, not an intercept heading. AviJake, who can I talk to today about this? Is there someone at Avidyne that is familiar? I need a solution fast. Hard to believe this situation exists, unless I am missing something. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 1:39pm
OK I've been playing with the simulator and I was wrong about one thing. You CAN select a waypoint in the flight plan and hit the activate leg LSK which will give you guidance along the published course to that waypoint, not direct to guidance. So that's good for a SID where you want to skip the runway heading and intercept heading waypoints which may or may not prompt you to sequence (they didn't for me 2 of 3 times). That's an acceptable work around for a SID where you can make that selection on the ground. But in the missed approach scenario where you are close to the ground, trying to reconfigure the aircraft for climb, turning to a heading, and maintaining control it is unacceptable to have to twist knobs and push buttons. At least on my old 430 it was just one button push (SUSP). I get Avidyne's reasoning and desire to provide positive GPS guidance along all phases of flight, even headings. That works great for an integrated system like R9 where you always have baro corrected altitude data to the GPS. But in a retrofit situation where most people do not have this feature it just adds complexity and workload. It would be nice if there were a user selectable option to turn off all runway and intercept guidance waypoints. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roltman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

OK so here's my question then.... An air data computer like the Sandia will still only provide uncorrected altitude because there is no way to set the local altimeter setting into the ADC.

That is incorrect it takes it in via 5VDC input from an altimeter. I don't think all altimeters have this connection, so a different altimeter maybe needed.  I think the ADC from Insight has an input for baro so that could be a possibility as well.

I depart Teterboro on the SID or I depart Memphis on the SID it does prompt me for a button push to sequence the next waypoint.  I know when I shot the ILS at KPHF here last weekend on the miss it prompted me to push the LSK upon reaching some minimum altitude to fly the published missed approach. 

I can recall one incidence where I wasn't give the sequence and it was due some database issue.  I don't recall which runway, but doing the ELVIS2.EONEE out of Memphis didn't prompt.  It turned out to be a problem only with that specific runway.  At no point did I feel screwed when it didn't prompt, I had briefed the SID and activated the next sequence in the SID with two button pushes instead of one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 2:45pm
OK got it. Maybe there is a way to get baro alt to the 540 but it for sure is going to require a hardware addition. I found out that I do have altitude information from my AXP340 going back to the 540 via RS232 (pin 6 serial alt out to the 540). But again, that is uncompensated. I wonder if there is a place to enter the altimeter setting on the 540? That would do it. Then you also have to somehow enable the 540 to look at that alt information and use it to sequence rather than prompt for the manual sequence. How does that work? I cant find anything in the manual. 

As for sequencing without the prompt, you cannot sequence to the next heading "waypoint". If you select the "fly 050" waypoint in the flight plan there is no activate leg LSK. You can select a missed approach waypoint though and it will give you guidance along the published course, not direct to as I incorrectly stated before. But on a missed approach I don't like having to twist a knob and then push two buttons (LSK + ENT) to get it to work. It's too much heads down time at a super critical phase of flight. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 4:11pm


 It should work. The simulator screenshots provided above aren’t a perfect representation of your condition because they assume (simulate) that there is an alt input and will always sequence past the alt terminated leg. In the real world with no alt input or uncorrected baro input, the active heading-to-alt leg will be active until manually sequenced. While on the fly 255deg/1200’ leg (active) the L3 butler will present a sequence leg option and a yellow CAS will be presented.  We used the simulation environment with the above scenario to verify the behavior (see image). There is no shortcut to automate the behavior short of installing corrected baro alt input.


From your description  however, it looks like you highlighted the Fly heading 020deg leg which would  be how you defeated the butler (the available LSK on the left).

One important note too:  There are some legs which cannot be manually activated by selecting the leg and using the "Activate Leg" LSK, heading legs being one of them.  Generally, if it's terminated by a fix, you can activate it, but there are exceptions even to that rule (e.g. holds, origin, et. al.)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 4:37pm
Thank you. But I am saying that yesterday when I flew this SID in the airplane it did not present the "sequence leg" LSK nor did I see the yellow CAS alert at any point while on the SID. I took off, flew RH to 1200, turned to 020, and climbed to 4000 all while the fly 255/climb to 1200 leg was active and no sequence leg/CAS ever appeared. Similarly, I saw neither of these when I flew the missed approach yesterday on the ILS 29R at KSCK. This is my whole point. In my airplane I am not reliably seeing the "sequence leg" prompt. I had an instructor with me and he was staring at the 540 the whole time. We were both trying to figure out how to get the 540 to sequence both on the SID and the MA. That is my problem. This is why I am trying to find out how to provide baro compensated alt to the 540 in some way. I do have altitude information from my AXP340 going back to the 540 through the alt out serial port. But that is uncompensated. If you add a baro input on the 540 then I could get compensated altitude and this problem would go away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 6:18pm
What you're describing is not compliant with the system design. Can you get us the data logs to look at?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 6:33pm
Sure. What logs do you need? I noticed the files are very large and take a long time to download. Do you know which ones you need? Or should I just download all of them? And where do I send them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 6:35pm
Also, are there any plans to add the function to input an altimeter setting into the 540 so that compensated altitude can be derived from the pressure altitude being sent to the 540 from the AXP 340? That would be really nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 9:33pm
I thought I recall there being an issue (regulation limitation) with having to input the altimeter setting in more than one location.  I can't think of a source other than my imagination.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fritz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 10:22pm
Is it possible you are looking for the button on the MAP page?  I recall (possibly incorrectly) that it only appears on the FMS page.

Also, if you ever want a safety pilot to fly with you who is familiar with the IFD540 let me know, I am based at Gnoss and would be happy to join you.

Best,

Fritz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2015 at 12:51am
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

Sure. What logs do you need? I noticed the files are very large and take a long time to download. Do you know which ones you need? Or should I just download all of them? And where do I send them?


We only need Event, System and Flight logs. Are you familiar with ftp method of data transfer? I'm overseas right now but if you can contact tech support, they can give you ftp instructions. Just be sure to have them notify me when they have the logs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2015 at 2:04am
Ok will do thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhbehrens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2015 at 4:10am
Scott

Could it be that you activated the flight plan before you added the SID? In that case the IFD will sequence to the first waypoint after the departure airport that was set before you added the SID unless you specifically activate the first leg of the SID.



Edited by jhbehrens - 21 Nov 2015 at 4:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2015 at 9:56am
Logs analyzed:

For the flight on 11/18/2015:
At 23:53:14, the pilot entered the LIVR1 departure, RW25[LR] transition
At 23:55:00, the flight plan became active, Course to 1200 leg being the active leg and, simultaneously, the "Manual Sequence Req'd" alert was issued.
At 23:55:13, the pilot commanded a direct to ALTAM. As a result, the alert was removed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2015 at 9:06pm
OK thanks. I will fly this again and see what I missed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luchetto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2016 at 5:09pm
I have a TAS1000 from Insight Avionics, would this qualify for the baro altitude. The TAS is an ADC but definitely not latest technology anymore. How should it be configured to get the data as my IFD also did not sequence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 9:50am
Originally posted by luchetto luchetto wrote:

I have a TAS1000 from Insight Avionics, would this qualify for the baro altitude. The TAS is an ADC but definitely not latest technology anymore. How should it be configured to get the data as my IFD also did not sequence.

Yes, we list the TAS 1000 ADC in our installation manual as a source for Air Data.
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