VLOC stays yellow |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Posted: 26 Sep 2015 at 4:53pm |
Just read the VLOC thread "Check Navaid ID".
I'm afraid that I am not seeing VLOC transition from yellow to green. Jake, you mentioned the following criteria ... To trigger the transition from armed VLOC to active VLOC, all of the following capture criteria must be met: · The tuned frequency in the nav radio matches that of the approach navaid; · The Morse code decoded by the tuned nav radio matches the identifier of the approach navaid; · The aircraft track is within 15 degrees of the final approach course; · The course to the active waypoint is within 45 degrees of the final approach course; · The radio deviations are at most 50% of full scale for 5 consecutive seconds; · The active leg is part of the approach up to and including the final approach fix. The tuned freq matched the navaid (no CAS alert), the correct Morse ID was showing, I was precisely on track on the LOC on the final approach course, inbound to the FAF, intercepted about 5 miles outside the FAF. This was a VTF transition on the ILS 15 into CYXU. Any thoughts? * Orest |
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AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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Should have worked. Send me/us your datalogs and we'll see if the explanation is hidden in there.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Thanks, will do.
* Orest |
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AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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Any chance you were tripped up by this Pilot Guide note:
Exception
to Automatic Nav Mode Switching If
VLOC mode had been previously manually selected to be the nav mode (e.g.
cross-tuning a VOR) and then an approach is activated in the flight plan that
would have normally resulted in a GPS à VLOC nav mode indication, the nav mode will NOT
toggle to GPS à
VLOC. Instead, it will stay at VLOC
since it is assumed the pilot intended to keep using the previous function. Likewise, the approach nav frequency will be
inserted into the #1 standby nav frequency slot but not the active nav
frequency position. Both the nav mode
transition and the swapping of the nav frequencies will have to be manually
performed by the pilot. |
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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No, it was VTF on an ILS approach. Modes were all switched automatically, the VLOC just stayed yellow.
I'm going to fly a few more ILS approaches, and pay attention to this. But, I am pretty sure I noticed this at least once before, just ignored it that time. Will get the logs to you.
* Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 28 Sep 2015 at 10:28pm |
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wookie
Groupie Joined: 18 Feb 2015 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 56 |
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The G-1000 does this also... kind too smart by one half!! |
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BH
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warrenc
Newbie Joined: 27 May 2015 Location: Tampa Bay Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Orest I have had this happen, but only on certain ILS approaches. I just got my plane back 10 days ago from the install. I flew the ILS at Brooksville, FL (KBKV) and VLOC stayed yellow. Went back to my installer at Tampa Exec, (KVDF) and it was blue. Trip Taylor, of 540 Webinar fame, flew in to give me instruction on the new stack last Friday. Our ILS at BKV, yellow with correct id on the freq page. Flew the ILS at Ocala, (KOCF), also yellow. Then back down to Tampa Exec (kvdf), VLOC was blue. He has a call in to Avidyne but hasn't heard back. The autopilot flew perfect approaches with VLOC yellow. |
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Warren
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Yes, there is something going on here.
I am going to fly a few local ILSes, observe what happens, and send some logs in.
* Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 11 Oct 2015 at 6:58pm |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Well, I can say that I have NEVER seen a change from yellow -> green on the VLOC indicator, on an ILS approach -- VLOC remains YELLOW throughout. I've done a number of such approaches at different (Canadian) airports.
I'll get a data dump and send it in. Which logs do you need? But, perhaps I can open this up, do most folks see VLOC transition from yellow to green, running 10.1? * Orest |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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OK, forwarded ALL of the logs by FTP.
* Orest |
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roltman
Senior Member Joined: 04 Aug 2011 Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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I honestly haven't flown an ILS since 10.1, but I'll try and make it a point this week to do so for nothing more than another data point, unless Avidyne comes back with this being a known issue. |
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94S
Senior Member Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Location: Bismarck, ND Status: Offline Points: 163 |
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I get a green VLOC annunciation when tuned to a VOR, but I don't think I've ever gotten one when tuned to a LOC/ILS. I thought this was related to the fact the IFD will not pull the NAV flag on the KI-209A (an integration issue specific to the KI-209A) when tuned to a LOC/ILS. It works perfectly when tuned to a VOR, but not when tuned to LOC frequency. Weird, right? It's my understanding from tech support that a fix has been developed for this KI-209A quirk, but from the list AviJake posted of the fixes, I don't think it's included in 10.1.1.0. Hopefully 10.1.2.0!!! |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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The answer from Avidyne tech support ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The
IFD540 continuously uses the active nav frequency and the decoded Morse
code in an attempt to find VHF navaids in the vicinity of the aircraft
that have matching frequency
and identifier. The nav database makes a distinction between "VHF
Navaids" and "ILS Navaids", though there are some ILS navaids included
in the VHF navaid list. That distinction is present in the source data
that we get from Jeppesen. For the ILS at CYHM
(identifier IAB), the ILS is coded as an ILS navaid. Therefore, the
IFD540 doesn't find it in the list of VHF navaids. The IFD540 will only
turn the VLOC indication green when this process finds a matching
navaid and since none was found in this case, VLOC
remains yellow.
As
I mentioned, there are several ILSs included in the VHF Navaid list.
One example in that same area exists at the CYZT airport (Toronto). The
ILS there is 110.15 and
has an identifier of ITZ. If you were to fly the ILS 08 there, the
VLOC indication would indeed turn green.
Note
that the yellow VLOC just indicates that the IFD540 isn't sure that the
proper navaid is tuned, so you should verify that it's correct before
using it. The IFD540
will still use the signal that it's receiving, but the VLOC will remain
yellow. So, it's still perfectly safe to use VLOC guidance, it's just
not as convenient because the IFD540 isn't doing the station
verification for you.
I will be discussing this further with Jake and the rest of the engineering team. Don't know if this can be added as a future feature in our 540 software or if it is better addressed at some other step (at Jeppesen and/or subsequent data processing). |
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DavidBunin
Senior Member Joined: 20 May 2015 Location: Rockwall, TX Status: Offline Points: 742 |
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I'm not sure I understand. Are they saying that VLOC will always stay yellow when flying certain ILS approaches, because of the way the navaid is coded in the database? Is there a way for me to know before the flight, which approaches are "perma-yellow" and that this is normal operation? In other words, how would I be privy to the data base coding of navaids? David Bunin |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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It is kind of a cool feature, gone wrong, because the database is missing most of the LOC IDs, although it is complete for VORs. As far as I know, there aren't any "blank" entries, just missing entries, so hard to determine what is not represented.
So, yes, as a result on most ILS approaches, the VLOC will remain yellow.
So, Avidyne's options: 1) Remove the feature altogether, no database confirmation for yellow -> green transition 2) Have the lookup only for VOR approaches 3) Get Jepp to complete the database (good luck) Maybe something else ingenious. For now, option #1 is probably the most practical, it removes ambiguity and potential pilot misunderstanding. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 28 Oct 2015 at 11:07am |
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bellanca1730a
Groupie Joined: 04 Jul 2013 Location: Tampa Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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How about a "verify" prompt, with whatever legalese would be necessary, wherein the subsequent "acknowledge" entry clears the prompt and triggers green provided all other criteria for green are met?
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Sean Andrews
Bellanca Super Viking |
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ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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Yes, something should be changed, if for no reason that the amber/yellow color suggests caution for a problem; a yellow indication WRT an approach has the wrong psychology.
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David Gates
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cavu
Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2015 Location: KRME Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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I vote a "verify VLOC" prompt and when dismissed, go to Green or Blue or just stay yellow. Or better yet, have the prompt tell us what data is missing to warrant green so I, as the pilot, can verify.
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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I like that. * Orest |
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AUXAIR
Senior Member Joined: 01 Jul 2015 Location: KSUA Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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Good suggestion
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David E.
Cessna 182 RG II |
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