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What’s the reason for a GAP ?

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GaryB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What’s the reason for a GAP ?
    Posted: 23 Apr 2020 at 9:44pm
Just trying to understand the reason a gap is created in a flight plan after an approach is loaded, instead of just leaving the leg to the airport ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 9:01am
Say you have an enroute leg to point A followed by a leg to the destination airport.  You insert an approach that starts at point B.  The FMS isn't sure how you want to get from A to B, so it inserts a gap before B.  If it's OK to go direct, then you just have to close the gap.
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 9:54am
thanks Steve
I understand what to do, but I don’t understand why it doesn’t leave the next leg going to the destination airport. If heading to a fix before your destination and the controller says expect the RNAV 23 approach you can’t load the approach until passing the fix and on the leg to the airport. If you do load the approach you must either activate it or clear the gap. So now your heading for some other fix and not the airport even though your not yet cleared for the approach or cleared to the fix. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 10:50am
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

thanks Steve
I understand what to do, but I don’t understand why it doesn’t leave the next leg going to the destination airport. If heading to a fix before your destination and the controller says expect the RNAV 23 approach you can’t load the approach until passing the fix and on the leg to the airport. If you do load the approach you must either activate it or clear the gap. So now your heading for some other fix and not the airport even though your not yet cleared for the approach or cleared to the fix.
You don't have to activate the approach until you are cleared for the approach.  There is no "...must either activate it or clear the gap...".  If you are cleared for a visual, then you would never activate or clear the gap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 11:13am
thanks Bob
Appreciate the help. 
What I don’t understand is when I’m NOT cleared for the approach and I’ve past the fix and supposed to be heading for the airport. If I leave the gap the airplane doesn’t know where to go. If I clear the gap the airplane is heading for the approach fix and not the airport. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 11:35am
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

thanks Steve
I understand what to do, but I don’t understand why it doesn’t leave the next leg going to the destination airport. If heading to a fix before your destination and the controller says expect the RNAV 23 approach you can’t load the approach until passing the fix and on the leg to the airport. If you do load the approach you must either activate it or clear the gap. So now your heading for some other fix and not the airport even though your not yet cleared for the approach or cleared to the fix.
The mission of the FMS is to fly the sequence of waypoints that is entered into the flight plan.  As long as the flight plan is an accurate representation of your clearance, everything should work out just fine.  The problem here is that when an expected clearance is entered, the flight plan no longer represents your actual clearance.  But that's where the gap comes to the rescue.  Remember the purpose of the gap is to tell you that the FMS doesn't know how you want to get from the waypoint before the gap to the waypoint after the gap.  If you receive clearance for the approach before you have reached the last enroute waypoint, then you can just close the gap and the FMS will happily sequence onto the approach with no further action from you.  Or, if your clearance is direct to the IAF, you would just do -D->.  But, if you are getting close to the last enroute waypoint and haven't yet been cleared for the approach, then your clearance is still to the airport.  In that case, just enter a leg to the airport immediately prior to the gap and the flight plan is again representative of your clearance.  Then, when you're cleared to start the approach, you would just -D-> the IAF or whatever you're instructed to do to start the approach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 11:36am
As you identified, the IFD appears to handle the gap creation a couple of different ways depending on whether the airport you wish to load the approach for is the active waypoint or not.

If the airport you wish to load the approach for is the active waypoint, then loading the approach will retain the airport as your active waypoint and the approach as well as a second instance of that airport in the approach will load after a gap placed after the active waypoint.

If the approach you wish to load is at an airport in your flight plan but not the active waypoint, when the approach loads, the approach will use the flight plan airport waypoint in the approach and a gap will be created after the last waypoint that originally preceded the airport waypoint. In this case, the result is only one instance of that airport in the IFD flight plan.

There are a several techniques I have come up with to handle this; the last one in particular may be easier than the technique you mentioned:

1) If the last leg to the airport you wish to load the approach for is lengthy and time management permits, wait until it is the active waypoint before loading the desired approach.

2) If you wish to load the approach and know you will get an alternate clearance or vectors before the airport leg becomes active, load the approach and leave the gap as is. While this technique is perfectly usable, I personally do not like having the IFD flight plan differ from my ATC cleared routing and try to keep gaps in the IFD flight plan in the appropriate place to indicate ATC clearance limits.

3) If you wish to load the expected approach prior to the airport becoming the active fix as well as retain the leg to the airport; load the approach then insert a second instance of the airport waypoint immediately before the gap that was created when the approach loaded. The resulting flight plan will look quite similar to the way the IFD handles adding the approach when the airport is the active waypoint resulting in two instances of the airport in the flight plan; one just prior to the gap and one in the approach. This technique results in the gap being properly placed at the ATC clearance limit.



Edited by dmtidler - 25 Apr 2020 at 10:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

thanks Bob
Appreciate the help. 
What I don’t understand is when I’m NOT cleared for the approach and I’ve past the fix and supposed to be heading for the airport. If I leave the gap the airplane doesn’t know where to go. If I clear the gap the airplane is heading for the approach fix and not the airport. 
Ah...yes, my answer was incomplete.  Steve and dmtidler covered it nicely.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 12:11pm
thanks for the detailed responses. 
Looks like putting the airport in before the gap will work best most of the time. I realize this doesn’t happen very often, I just don’t see why the IFD would need to act different when entering an approach if your leg is a fix before the airport then it does when your leg is to the airport. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

thanks for the detailed responses. 
Looks like putting the airport in before the gap will work best most of the time. I realize this doesn’t happen very often, I just don’t see why the IFD would need to act different when entering an approach if your leg is a fix before the airport than it does when your leg is to the airport. 
The reason for the difference is that when the leg to the airport is active, we don't want to interrupt that guidance.  So, we put the approach, including the destination and the missed approach, after the active leg.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2020 at 8:46pm
thanks Steve
That’s exactly what I was trying to understand. That said, I agree not to interrupt guidance to the airport if your heading to it, but I don’t agree with the logic to interrupt the guidance to the airport just because it’s after a fix. NOT THAT ANY OF THIS IS THAT BIG A DEAL. 

APPRECIATE YOUR HELP STEVE. 
Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 2:46am
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

thanks Steve
That’s exactly what I was trying to understand. That said, I agree not to interrupt guidance to the airport if your heading to it, but I don’t agree with the logic to interrupt the guidance to the airport just because it’s after a fix. NOT THAT ANY OF THIS IS THAT BIG A DEAL. 

APPRECIATE YOUR HELP STEVE. 
YMMV, but I look at it this way.  When the approach is entered, the flight plan is modified on how to get to the destination airport.  The original route to destination is no longer valid.  If there is a gap, the IFD can’t know for sure how the pilot intends to continue after the last waypoint before the approach.  The intent might be to start direct destination as originally planned or it might not be.  The pilot should be the one to definitively define the route and program the IFD.  The IFD should not assume a waypoint that the pilot may not intend or even realize was added.  The pilot should always be in the loop for modifying the route.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 8:30am
IF the navigator is programmed to go direct to the airport, and the approach is entered to that same airport at what point (along the route to the airport) does the navigator decide to change course and proceed to the IAF ? 
How does the navigator know which IAF to proceed to ? 
What if ATC issues vectors to an IF ? 

all good reasons for a /gap/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 9:02am
all good points, but if your original routing is “ Direct xyz then Direct Airport expect RNAV 23 “ your Clearence hasn’t changed. Your still supposed to be direct to the airport after xyz. Therefore The gap has changed your routing and your Clearence has not changed. 


Good discussion. 
Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 10:57am
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

all good points, but if your original routing is “Direct xyz then Direct Airport expect RNAV 23 “ your Clearence hasn’t changed. Your still supposed to be direct to the airport after xyz. Therefore The gap has changed your routing and your Clearence has not changed.
Good discussion. 
I’m assuming by original routing, you mean that it includes direct destination airport, but not "expect RNAV 23".  Then by “Clearance hasn’t changed”, the only difference is the addition of “expect RNAV 23” at some point enroute.

In this case, your clearance has indeed changed.  You’ve been told to expect routing to the destination airport via RNAV 23.  You won’t actually expect to get to the destination airport before commencing the approach.  There’s a good chance, you won’t even fly any portion of that last destination leg before commencing the approach.

The IFD doesn’t know anything about what has changed (or not) in your clearance, especially that you think your “Clearance hasn’t changed”.  It’s not a mind reader.  It only knows what you tell it.  If you re-program it that you will now proceed via RNAV 23 to the destination airport, there is nothing else it knows about your routing and it is dangerous for it to assume additional information that you haven’t actually given it.  If you think that you will need to fly a portion of the last FP leg to the destination airport, then you need to finish re-programming it and insert the airport before the beginning of the RNAV 23 approach.  The IFD should NEVER insert waypoints that you haven’t explicitly given it.  The “Gap” is the method by which the IFD lets you know that programming is not yet finished.

Edit:  I should also mention, that if the IFD behaved as you'd like, there would be more Gaps created, not less.  There would be discontinuities from the airport to the IAF.


Edited by Bob H - 25 Apr 2020 at 12:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Bob H Bob H wrote:

Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

all good points, but if your original routing is “Direct xyz then Direct Airport expect RNAV 23 “ your Clearence hasn’t changed. Your still supposed to be direct to the airport after xyz. Therefore The gap has changed your routing and your Clearence has not changed.
Good discussion. 
I’m assuming by original routing, you mean that it includes direct destination airport, but not "expect RNAV 23".  Then by “Clearance hasn’t changed”, the only difference is the addition of “expect RNAV 23” at some point enroute.

In this case, your clearance has indeed changed.  You’ve been told to expect routing to the destination airport via RNAV 23.  You won’t actually expect to get to the destination airport before commencing the approach.  There’s a good chance, you won’t even fly any portion of that last destination leg before commencing the approach.



I disagree; "expect RNAV 23" as used above is not a clearance and does not change any previously assigned altitude, speed, or routing clearance. It is purely informational for the pilot's planning purposes and lets the pilot have a general idea of what to expect and plan for when the time comes that ATC actually issues a further clearance.

As far as whether a pilot will fly at least part of the final airport leg or not, that depends on a myriad of factors; length of that leg from previous waypoint, direction of airport leg versus approach direction, local airspace and ATC procedures, etc. Local knowledge of these will factors will certainly aid the pilot in deciding whether the dropped airport leg should be inserted into the flight plan or use an alternate technique to handle that potential routing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by dmtidler dmtidler wrote:


I disagree; "expect RNAV 23" as used above is not a clearance and does not change any previously assigned altitude, speed, or routing clearance. It is purely informational for the pilot's planning purposes and lets the pilot have a general idea of what to expect and plan for when the time comes that ATC actually issues a further clearance.
Of course you are right.  I stand corrected.  I wouldn't actually fly the approach until I was cleared to do so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 6:24pm
When I first got the IFDs, I wondered about the gap also but the more I thought about it and used it,  the more sense it made and realized I had to stop thinking like a G***** pilot after my years on the 430s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 7:02pm
The gap concept is very similar to the route discontinuity concept found in the Honeywell, Smith Industries, and Thales FMCs found in Boeing and Airbus airliners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 8:38pm
thanks Bob
My point exactly. Your Clearence hasn’t changed therefore your routing shouldn’t change until you get vectors for the approach or some other instructions that could happen after xyz fix. 
Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by dmtidler dmtidler wrote:

The gap concept is very similar to the route discontinuity concept found in the Honeywell, Smith Industries, and Thales FMCs found in Boeing and Airbus airliners.


+1

* Orest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

thanks Bob
My point exactly. Your Clearence hasn’t changed therefore your routing shouldn’t change until you get vectors for the approach or some other instructions that could happen after xyz fix. 
Then don't re-program the IFD with the approach until you've actually received a new clearance for the approach.  I believe all my other points are still valid in terms of the IFD only knowing what you tell it.  If you only want it to represent your clearance, then only enter what you've specifically been cleared to do.  It can't know what your clearance is vs. what your expected clearance is (the approach).  If the pilot enters route information, then that is what the IFD is going to fly regardless if the pilot considers something else to be their official clearance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 11:13am

[/QUOTE]Then don't re-program the IFD with the approach until you've actually received a new clearance for the approach.  

Kind of defeats the purpose of the controller giving you an expected approach. Just trying to stay ahead of the airplane. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:


Quote Then don't re-program the IFD with the approach until you've actually received a new clearance for the approach. 

Kind of defeats the purpose of the controller giving you an expected approach. Just trying to stay ahead of the airplane. 


Staying ahead of the airplane is what this is all about.

At the beginning of a flight, my last enroute fix is just before the destination airport in the flight plan.  Before starting my descent, I've briefed an approach I expect to get and loaded it into the IFD.  Often, that creates a Gap if the approach starts at a fix not in my route.  Not a problem, it's to deal with later.  I've also reviewed some other approaches I might get, so that I won't be behind things if I don't get the approach I expect.

As I get closer, I usually am told to expect the approach I planned for, so I change nothing.  But if I get a different one to expect, I delete the first one and replace it with the new one.

All this is done to reduce workload when I get the actual clearance for the approach, when things get a little busier.  If that clearance is for the approach I've loaded, I delete the Gap if there is one, proceed to whatever fix I've been cleared to, and fly the approach.

At no time do I consider that I need an approach clearance in order to load an approach into the IFD.  I don't even need a controller to tell me what to expect.  I load it myself after reviewing the METAR and surmising which approach I'd prefer.  And if the controller says to expect some other approach I don't like, I'll ask for the approach I prefer.  That doesn't happen often, but when it does, ATC will often accommodate.


Edited by Catani - 26 Apr 2020 at 12:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

Kind of defeats the purpose of the controller giving you an expected approach. Just trying to stay ahead of the airplane.
Of course it does.  I was being facetious.  You are insisting that the IFD match your clearance and that is the only way to have the route in the IFD exactly match your clearance.

As dmtidler nicely stated:
Originally posted by dmtidler dmtidler wrote:

As far as whether a pilot will fly at least part of the final airport leg or not, that depends on a myriad of factors; length of that leg from previous waypoint, direction of airport leg versus approach direction, local airspace and ATC procedures, etc. Local knowledge of these factors will certainly aid the pilot in deciding whether the dropped airport leg should be inserted into the flight plan or use an alternate technique to handle that potential routing.
In other words a portion of that final leg to the airport won’t always be flown.  The approach is an anticipated change to your clearance.  As part of that anticipated change, I prefer to decide whether flying that last leg to the airport will be part of the approach.

The bottom line for me is:
1. Entering the approach in the IFD is indicating that I expect a new clearance on how to get to the airport other than how I am currently cleared.  For me, that expectation includes a decision about flying the last enroute leg to the airport.
2. There’s a good chance, I won’t fly any portion of that last leg to the airport, so I don’t want the IFD to always assume that I will.
3. If the last leg to the airport is always retained, there will be many more circumstances of Gaps that need to be closed - discontinuity between the airport and IAF.
4. I think Avidyne has hit the right architecture balance with the way they handle adding an expected approach and the use of Gaps.
5. I talk too much, analyze things to death, and make points that are not always germane to the point, and thereby just obfuscate the issue!  Others have made the point better, especially Steve.

I guess this simply comes down to personal preference of one model vs. another.


Edited by Bob H - 26 Apr 2020 at 6:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by Bob H Bob H wrote:

[QUOTE=GaryB]Kind of defeats the purpose of the controller giving you an expected approach. Just trying to stay ahead of the airplane.
Of course it does.  I was being facetious.  

Nice. Got me there. 


Bob Quote=The bottom line for me is:
1. Entering the approach in the IFD is indicating that I expect a new clearance on how to get to the airport other than how I am currently cleared.  For me, that expectation includes a decision about flying the last enroute leg to the airport.


Very good explanation. I can understand where your coming from now. Not totally onboard but makes sense. 

Bob Quote=5. I talk too much, analyze things to death, and make points that are not always germane to the point, and thereby just obfuscate the issue!  


No worries Bob. Keeps things interesting. We’re all here to learn. 
Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by GaryB GaryB wrote:

Very good explanation. I can understand where your coming from now. Not totally onboard but makes sense.
:-)  Takes awhile, but I get there eventually!  Kind of like my flying - never a Direct To!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2020 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by Bob H Bob H wrote:


3. If the last leg to the airport is always retained, there will be many more circumstances of Gaps that need to be closed - discontinuity between the airport and IAF.


I personally don’t see a need to close flight plan gaps unless cleared via a continuous waypoint to waypoint routing onto the approach or approach transition. In other words, if I am going to be vectored onto the approach or given present position direct-to routing to a waypoint on the approach side of the gap, there is no need to close the gap. In the case of a Vectors selected approach (I view the IFD Vectors to final as a unique type of flight plan gap), the Vectors to final type gap cannot be closed.

Using Activate VTF or using either Activate Leg or direct-to with a waypoint on the approach side of the gap while being vectored or having been given a direct-to clearance all sequence the IFD flight plan and active waypoint to the approach side of the gap. This happens regardless of how many waypoints were remaining to fly over prior to the gap.

My long winded point is that there shouldn’t be any increase in the number of gaps that need to be closed by choosing to retain the airport fix or not prior to the gap; I believe the number of gaps that need to be closed will remain the same.


Edited by dmtidler - 30 Apr 2020 at 10:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 10:28am
I my above post I failed to mention the Activate Approach FMS hook as another method to cross or modify flight plan discontinuities. I tended to not use this FMS hook because I didn't have clear understanding of how it exactly works and had witnessed different behaviors at different times. One of the things I really like about the IFD is that many times there are multiple paths to achieving the desired results so I had never forced myself to learn the nuances of the Activate Approach.

I did some testing of the Activate Approach FMS hook on the IFD simulator and have found that it appears to work three different ways depending on the discontinuity (Gap in route or Vectors to final) and if the active waypoint just prior to the discontinuity is the airport the approach is based on or not. The Activate Approach FMS hook appears to only be available if the IFD active waypoint is the flight plan waypoint immediately preceding a discontinuity before an approach.

1) If a VTF approach has been loaded, Activate Approach works identical to either selecting Activate VTF or selecting Activate Leg to the waypoint just after the Vectors to final discontinuity. All three of these methods set the FAF as the active waypoint and the course to the inbound leg of the FAF as determined by the IFD. As described earlier, the Vectors to final type discontinuity is always retained in the flight plan. This is IFD behavior is well described in the IFD PG.

2)  If a non-VTF approach has been loaded, there is a discontinuity before the approach, and the IFD active waypoint immediately before the discontinuity is the airport for the approach; Activate Approach performs a direct-to the first waypoint of the approach after the discontinuity. The discontinuity is retained in the flight plan.

3) If a non-VTF approach has been loaded, there is a discontinuity before the approach, and the IFD active waypoint immediately before the discontinuity is not the airport for the approach; Activate Approach closes the discontinuity by connecting the active waypoint and the first waypoint of the selected approach. The flight plan discontinuity disappears in this instance.

I could not find any reference to the non-VTF Activate Approach behaviors addressed in the IFD PG.




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Bob H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2020 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by dmtidler dmtidler wrote:

Originally posted by Bob H Bob H wrote:


3. If the last leg to the airport is always retained, there will be many more circumstances of Gaps that need to be closed - discontinuity between the airport and IAF.


I personally don’t see a need to close flight plan gaps unless cleared via a continuous waypoint to waypoint routing onto the approach or approach transition. In other words, if I am going to be vectored onto the approach or given present position direct-to routing to a waypoint on the approach side of the gap, there is no need to close the gap. In the case of a Vectors selected approach (I view the IFD Vectors to final as a unique type of flight plan gap), the Vectors to final type gap cannot be closed.

Using Activate VTF or using either Activate Leg or direct-to with a waypoint on the approach side of the gap while being vectored or having been given a direct-to clearance all sequence the IFD flight plan and active waypoint to the approach side of the gap. This happens regardless of how many waypoints were remaining to fly over prior to the gap.

My long winded point is that there shouldn’t be any increase in the number of gaps that need to be closed by choosing to retain the airport fix or not prior to the gap; I believe the number of gaps that need to be closed will remain the same.
I certainly agree.  My comment was based on the original poster's concern about having to close gaps.  If they always feel that they MUST close the gap then they are going to have more gaps to deal with if there's always a leg to the airport before the approach.  Your statement is very clear:  "...the number of gaps that need to be closed will remain the same...". is based on your assessment of NEED, which I do agree with.  But those who feel that they MUST resolve the gap are not thinking that way.  I think there is an excessive concern about making the IFD auto sequence.  Heaven forbid the pilot has to get in the loop.

My reasoning behind more gaps is: IAFs that are part of a route in the IFD will not have a gap before the approach.  However, if the airport always comes before the approach, that advantage is lost.  I'm not aware of airports having routes or transitions to IAFs for their approaches.  I like the way the IFD currently handles approaches and the use of gaps, so I was putting forth an additional argument for the current structure if the concern is that gaps MUST be closed.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 8:48am
Exactly...I too like the way the IFD handles approaches and the use of gaps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ibraham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 11:55am
Great video from Gary Reeves about the GAP

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2020 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by Ibraham Ibraham wrote:

Great video from Gary Reeves about the GAP

Thanks for pointing this out!

EDIT:  I loved Gary's comment about Garbage In --->>  Garbage Out.  The point being that we can program the IFD to avoid Gaps 90% of the time.  With programmable Nav systems, we now have to think differently about how we file our flight plans and therefore how we program the box.


Edited by Bob H - 07 May 2020 at 3:14pm
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