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How to program this clearance into FMS?

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MysticCobra View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 10:17am
I am looking for help from more experienced IFR flyers and IFDx40 gurus for the best way to input certain types of clearances into my IFD.

Yesterday, I received this clearance:  T41 > KSSF via IDU7.IDU MARCS RODIO2 (unfortunately, the data in the Avidyne simulator does not match these current procedures, so we can't walk through the sim together for this exercise a similar clearance that exhibits the same challenges using the older simulator database would be IDU5.IDU MARCS RODIO1 SSF).

First challenge:  When I select the Industry7 (IDU7) departure, I must select a termination point other than IDU.  In this case, I chose SAT because that route included the MARCS waypoint (in the simulator, you could select the LRD transition to get MARCS).  The RODIO2 arrival also includes the MARCS waypoint.  However, I could not figure out how to make the IFD "join" the departure to the arrival at that common waypoint.  How do I do that?

Second challenge:  When I loaded the RODIO2 arrival, the last waypoint included was BRAUN.  However, when flying that approach to SSF, per the "ALL OTHER AIRPORTS" section of the procedure, you are instructed to proceed beyond BRAUN to TROOP and then CRISS.  (I don't remember which RODIO2 transition I selected, but it seemed intuitive at the time...I notice that if I pick WINDU in the sim, it *does* include the TROOP and CRISS waypoints, as well as a block for the expected ATC vector, but I did not get those blocks with whatever I chose yesterday.)  I tried to manually insert TROOP and CRISS in-between the end of the arrival and KSSF, but when I placed the cursor there and tried to add a waypoint, the "waypoint" option was not available, so I could not do it.

How should I have properly handled these two challenges?


Edited by MysticCobra - 08 Mar 2016 at 7:41am
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edanford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edanford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 2:17pm
I looked at it in sim and found the Borrn1.SAT (T41) and KSSF arrival Marc9.IDU were pretty close to what you got.

I would have worked it backwards.  

Enter T41 direct KSSF,  then add the KSSF arrival.

Connect the gap on that and enter the waypoints on the T41 IDU departure since it does not come directly from T41.

This may not be the best way but it ends up with the route they want you to fly

Ed

Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 3:07pm
... and for SIDS, don't forget to add the runway into the ORIGIN flight plan block. Sometimes there is  runway specific guidance.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 8:04am
Originally posted by edanford edanford wrote:

I looked at it in sim and found the Borrn1.SAT (T41) and KSSF arrival Marc9.IDU were pretty close to what you got.
Not sure I follow you...are you suggesting I go look for other SIDs than the one I get with my clearance as a regular way to operate the IFD, or are you just mentioning BORRN1 due to the limitations of the simulator data?

Quote I would have worked it backwards.  

Enter T41 direct KSSF,  then add the KSSF arrival.

Connect the gap on that and enter the waypoints on the T41 IDU departure since it does not come directly from T41.

This may not be the best way but it ends up with the route they want you to fly

I appreciate the reply, but I gotta say it still leaves me scratching my head.  So...I've got a fancy GPS unit that costs as much as a small automobile, and I've got a clearance from ATC that makes perfect sense, but I actually can't just load the two procedures involved and glue them together at a common waypoint?  Rather, I have to choose which one of the procedures I'm not going to load from the database, and instead manually enter the desired subset of waypoints from that procedure?

That is not the answer I was expecting to hear.

Steve?  Simpson?  Do you guys have any better suggestions for how I should have entered my clearance into my IFD's FMS?


Edited by MysticCobra - 03 Mar 2016 at 8:05am
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edanford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edanford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 11:49am
The arrival and departures mentioned were due to sim data base limitations.

I would like a way to update them with my current subscription data base too for these issues.

I was able to get in  the bind you hit using the older data though.

The reason I  chose to drop the departure was how does the FMS program radar vectors to one of the two possible waypoints?

I do see how you had issue with this clearance
Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

 First challenge:  When I select the Industry7 (IDU7) eparture, I must select a termination point other than IDU.  In this case, I chose SAT because that route included the MARCS waypoint.  The RODIO2 arrival also includes the MARCS waypoint.  However, I could not figure out how to make the IFD "join" the departure to the arrival at that common waypoint.  How do I do that?

In the PC simulator, I can load the BORRN1 with WAILN transition, and then the RODIO1 with the WAILN transition, and have them match up just fine.   But if I could not find a SID or STAR with a common transitions in circumstances like this where the airports, each in dense airspace, are so close together, then I'd file a SID from the departure point to a transition near the destination.  Then in the air the local controller would likely clear me for the SID, and when handed off to the arrival controller I'd either get a clearance direct somewhere to start a STAR, or more likely vectors.  There are many airports so close together than you can't get the SIDs and STARs to match up, so you don't try.  Another option is to ask for a tower enroute clearance (it doesn’t hurt to ask) from T41 clearance delivery and just have them tell you what routing they want you to follow if they offer that service, and then load that into the GPS.  With airports that close together, if the approach controls butt up against one another and you never get into center's airspace, a tower enroute clearance will often work and spare you the trouble of trying to guess what routing they will want to give you.

Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

 Second challenge:  When I loaded the RODIO2 arrival, the last waypoint included was BRAUN.  However, when flying that approach to SSF, per the "ALL OTHER AIRPORTS" section of the procedure, you are instructed to proceed beyond BRAUN to TROOP and then CRISS.  (I don't remember which RODIO2 transition I selected, but it seemed intuitive at the time...I notice that if I pick WINDU in the sim, it *does* include the TROOP and CRISS waypoints, as well as a block for the expected ATC vector, but I did not get those blocks with whatever I chose yesterday.)  I tried to manually insert TROOP and CRISS in-between the end of the arrival and KSSF, but when I placed the cursor there and tried to add a waypoint, the "waypoint" option was not available, so I could not do it.

How should I have properly handled these two challenges?

I'd fly what's in the database, and if ATC actually has you fly past BRAUN to TROOP instead of giving you vectors before BRAUN, at some point prior to BRAUN I'd delete the STAR and replace it with BRAUN TROOP CRISS KSSF, and expect to be vectored off that course at some point.  Don't let the FMS fly you.



Edited by Catani - 03 Mar 2016 at 4:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 1:21am
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

 First challenge:  When I select the Industry7 (IDU7) eparture, I must select a termination point other than IDU.  In this case, I chose SAT because that route included the MARCS waypoint.  The RODIO2 arrival also includes the MARCS waypoint.  However, I could not figure out how to make the IFD "join" the departure to the arrival at that common waypoint.  How do I do that?

In the PC simulator, I can load the BORRN1 with WAILN transition, and then the RODIO1 with the WAILN transition, and have them match up just fine.  

That's not really comparable to the clearance I was given.  A comparable situation to what I experienced, but using the sim's older database, would be the IDU5.LRD departure intersecting the RODIO1.WAILN arrival.  Each of those procedures has MARCS as an intermediate waypoint, and ATC told me to jump from the departure to the arrival at that intersection of the two procedures.  (IDU5.LRD MARCS RODIO1 SSF)

So how do I get the IFD to make that jump between the two procedures without me having to either manually rebuild one of the procedures waypoint-by-waypoint, or else take manual action to skip ahead several legs in my flight plan when I arrive at MARCS?  

Quote But if I could not find a SID or STAR with a common transitions in circumstances like this where the airports, each in dense airspace, are so close together, then I'd file a SID from the departure point to a transition near the destination.

That's a great idea, but I often don't get what I file.  I'm trying to figure out how to make the IFD fly what I get.

Quote Another option is to ask for a tower enroute clearance (it doesn’t hurt to ask) from T41 clearance delivery and just have them tell you what routing they want you to follow if they offer that service, and then load that into the GPS.  With airports that close together, if the approach controls butt up against one another and you never get into center's airspace, a tower enroute clearance will often work and spare you the trouble of trying to guess what routing they will want to give you.

While I think TECs are common in California, and maybe along the east coast, they don't exist in Texas.  The Houston / Dallas / San Antonio-Austin Approach Control regions don't abut each other; there is Center-controlled airspace between them.

Still, this routing was not a surprise.  FltPlan.com told me that 4 of the last 5 plans filed from T41 to SSF used the IDU departure to MARCS, and 3 of those also used the RODIO arrival, so I wasn't surprised to get that routing when I filed.

I also tried several times en route to get a more direct routing to SSF.  ATC insisted that I fly the route I was assigned.  

So again...the point is that I had a clearance, ATC wanted me to fly it, and I was okay with it.  I just got a lot more grief from my FMS than I expected to when I tried to program it, and I'd still be curious to hear how Steve would have handled it.



Edited by MysticCobra - 04 Mar 2016 at 1:22am
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Catani View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 3:14am
Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

 So again...the point is that I had a clearance, ATC wanted me to fly it, and I was okay with it.  I just got a lot more grief from my FMS than I expected to when I tried to program it, and I'd still be curious to hear how Steve would have handled it.  

I understand your situation better now, thanks.  Not sure why the IFDX40 does not permit selecting "no transition," since published transitions are not necessarily part of the procedure you may be required to fly or be cleared for. Your example is a good instance of that.  If the IFD permitted selection of "no transition" you would not have encountered the puzzle.

For now, how about this: create the flight plan, starting with T41 KSSF.  Then add the SID and STAR with the IDU departure to SAT and the RODIO arrival from WAILN.  Ignore the gap until after you are airborne and enroute.  Takeoff and fly the SID until inbound to MARCS.  Then find MARCS on the STAR and highlight it on the FPL page and fly direct to MARCS and let the FMS sequence normally after that.  All the erroneous ETA and fuel remaining data will correct at that point.  Or if you are more of a stickler and want to remain on-route of the STAR for as long as technically required, just before reaching MARCS on the SID activate the leg MARCS to BRAUN on the STAR. Either method requires some timely attention to things that would not be required if you could set up both the SID and STAR as "no transition," but the extra burden is slight.  It's more a nagging issue of "why should I have to do that?" than it is "how do I fly that?" as I see it at least.  If this is not due to database limitations but rather due to IFD software, it would be nice to get this fixed a some point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 7:43am
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

[QUOTE=MysticCobra]For now, how about this: create the flight plan, starting with T41 KSSF.  Then add the SID and STAR with the IDU departure to SAT and the RODIO arrival from WAILN.  Ignore the gap until after you are airborne and enroute.  Takeoff and fly the SID until inbound to MARCS.  Then find MARCS on the STAR and highlight it on the FPL page and fly direct to MARCS and let the FMS sequence normally after that.  All the erroneous ETA and fuel remaining data will correct at that point.  Or if you are more of a stickler and want to remain on-route of the STAR for as long as technically required, just before reaching MARCS on the SID activate the leg MARCS to BRAUN on the STAR. Either method requires some timely attention to things that would not be required if you could set up both the SID and STAR as "no transition," but the extra burden is slight.  It's more a nagging issue of "why should I have to do that?" than it is "how do I fly that?" as I see it at least.  If this is not due to database limitations but rather due to IFD software, it would be nice to get this fixed a some point.

This is, in fact, what I did (the second, actually, but only because for some reason your first suggestion never occurred to me--thanks for pointing that out).  

And the whole time I'm thinking, "I paid a jillion dollars for a fancy FMS, GPSS, and autopilot, exactly so I *wouldn't* have to remember to push a button at exactly the right time..."

I think that the solution involves more than simply adding a "no transition" option to the FMS (though that would be a good start--that situation also arises frequently for me).  The more general solution would be to somehow mask out or delete waypoints in a loaded procedure so that if you get instructions to deviate and fly direct from x to y bypassing z (or rather, direct a to g bypassing b, c, d, e, and f), it's easy to do that starting from the database-loaded procedure instead of rebuilding a procedure subset manually.


Edited by MysticCobra - 04 Mar 2016 at 7:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 10:19am
I think it was mentioned some time ago that the ability to "break-up" a procedure was on the list. It came up before where a pilot was trying to shortcut into an approach, but not at one of the transitions. He couldn't because the contiguous procedure block can't be altered.

If it isn't on the list, perhaps the folks when they get back from the helo show, will comment and/or add it.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Mar 2016 at 10:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 7:37am
Steve or Simpson, are you guys back in the office?  Could you offer any comment?
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