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IFD and Foreflight Direct to

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daveS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: IFD and Foreflight Direct to
    Posted: 24 Nov 2021 at 8:44pm
Have a route in the IFD that goes from A->B->C.  Load the plan into FF with no issue.  Center vectors you while on the A-B segment so that you’re off course.  They then clear you direct C which I enter in the IFD. I do a Load from Panel in FF and nothing changes. I check Settings-IFD-route field in FF and it doesn’t show the changed route.

Tested in the air with my IFD440s and on the ground with the 10.3 trainer and have the same results. 

So is the IFD not sending Lat/Lon on a Direct to?


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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2021 at 8:52pm
If the flight plan didn't change, there is nothing to update.

It doesn't sync active legs, or present position-direct.

* Orest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2021 at 9:40pm
Disappointing. I’d argue the flight plan is changed since it is updated to go from current location to the next waypoint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 10:58am
This is a FF issue discussed at length recently in the Avidyne Pilots Facebook forum. The recommendation is to contact FF tech support to generate enough interest that FF changes the way they code this issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 11:42am
I was part of the FB discussion and their were two issues discussed: auto update and Direct to.  It is clear that auto update is on the FF side.  I was less clear with Direct to.

There is a Route field in FF settings (Devices->IFD) that is populated by FF with what is sent by the IFD. When you do a Direct, this field does not change as expected.  There are two possibilities:  the IFD is not sending the new Direct plan or FF is not reading it correctly. 

I hope this is on the FF side as well. 

@AviSteve?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 2:18pm
I don’t know about the auto part; I know the direct-to download works as you wish with at least one other EFB manufacturer. This leads me to believe the issue is on the FF side of the equation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2021 at 7:33pm
Avidyne -- I'm working with Foreflight and they are working with me.  I recreated the scenario in the IFD Trainer on one iPad and FF on my iPhone.  I sent them FF logs, FF screen shots and IFD screenshots.  They are having trouble figuring out what is actually sent to FF.  I also recreated a scenario in the air and sent them the same info plus the IFD logs.  

Couple questions:

* Exactly what does the IFD send over WiFi when one does a Direct to a waypoint as described above?
* Perhaps I can include you in my discussions with Foreflight?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paulr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2021 at 12:45pm
I'm not sure your assumption that this change is modifying the flight plan is correct.

Let's say I have planned, and loaded into the FMS, HSV-VUZ-CTY-TPA. I take off, get south of VUZ, and get cleared direct TPA. I highlight TPA in the FMS, hit "direct to", enter, enter, and off I go.

I have not changed the *flight plan*. I have changed the *flight path* that the FMS will command. 

My understanding is that some FMS systems (e.g. Airbus) will require you to put in a present position marker (PPOS)-- so instead of "direct to" you actually modify the flight plan so it ends up looking like HSV-VUZ-PPOS-TPA. In that case, I would expect a "load from panel" to show an amendment to the flight plan. 

I'm not near either my airplane or an IFD trainer to test this, but I'd bet that the IFD doesn't send any change to the flight plan when you do direct-to, nor when you "activate leg". It will send a "leg is active" flag to a connected EFIS, but not to FF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2021 at 2:45pm
Disagree on this -- you have changed your plan to Direct TPA from the current point.  Your IFD map now reflects a route with the origin of the LAT/LON when you hit 'Direct' without any prior waypoints.  If you had an MFD and PFD, they would also show a route from the current location to TPA.  I would expect FF to show the same after doing a 'load from panel'.

I upload a couple images that show what happens after I hit Direct MAVER.

Keep in mind another pilot posted this scenarios worked with a different EFB so this implies the IFD does send the appropriate new route.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2021 at 2:47pm
Here's the panel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2021 at 4:59pm
I'm out of the office for a while, so won't be able to look at this until I get back.  I'm surprised that another EFB shows the direct-to, though.  Which EFB does that?
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2021 at 5:12pm
dmtidler mentioned this in this thread on 11/25. Didn’t mention the EFB but on Facebook someone mentioned FlyQ. I don’t have direct knowledge. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2021 at 5:54pm
FlyQ had been able to do this very thing for several years. For the past several months; however, FlyQ's flight plan transfer to and from the IFD has been having general issues that SA has been working to restore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aviatorchris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2021 at 3:08pm
Hi,
I am new to the forum, slowly working through the Avidyne IFD440 trainer and have a question.
If I select a GO TO leg in a Flight Plan, how do I cancel the GO TO? Tried selecting GO TO again then CANCEL, but fails to cancel it.
Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2021 at 3:15pm
<deleted>

Edited by oskrypuch - 27 Dec 2021 at 3:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2021 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Aviatorchris Aviatorchris wrote:

...how do I cancel the GO TO?


Welcome.

You just command what you want to do next. There is no "undo", so to speak.

If you want to resume tracking a certain leg, just highlight that leg, and select activate leg. If you want to do a GOTO to somewhere else, select the waypoint and command a direct to.

Is that your question?

* Orest


Edited by oskrypuch - 27 Dec 2021 at 3:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aviatorchris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2021 at 1:04pm
Hi,
Thank you for your reply.
Being familiar with the Garmin GNS430, I thought the IFD440 would work in a similar way. That is to cancel a GO TO/DIRECT TO on the Garmin you select DIRECT-TO again, then MENU, then CANCEL DIRECT TO NAV? then ENTER.
I will adopt your suggestion.
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2021 at 1:46pm
It is a different paradigm. You create a complete flight plan, including any SID, STAR, approach, perhaps even multiple airports. THEN you decide what you want to do with it, you can activate any leg or fly direct to any waypoint. And of course you can go back and change it further. That is more like a conventional FMS.

The IFDs do things in different ways, and I'd say Thank Goodness. ;-)

BTW, if you haven't discovered it, there is an excellent book on the IFD, also has an inexpensive kindle version. Uses a task oriented tutorial approach, very well done. It is slightly dated now, but the basic concepts remain the same.

https://www.amazon.com/Flying-Avidyne-IFD-Scenario-Based-Course/dp/0997848820/ref=sr_1_1

* Orest


Edited by oskrypuch - 28 Dec 2021 at 2:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 7:19pm
Hey Steve — have you had a chance to look at whether the Direct-to issue is on the Avidyne side or Foreflight?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 12:48am
The workaround, or everyday procedure, is when given a new Direct To clearance, is to command that on all navigators and EFB’s.
1. ATC clears you PPOS to a point down your flightplan.
2. Add the new waypoint to your route, if it not aleady there.
2. On IFD, select that point and press Direct button.
3. On EFB, such as Foreflight, in map mode with Flightplan, NAV box displayed; touch the arrow before the point that you are cleared Direct.  On popup, select Direct To. (There are at least 3 different ways of telling FF to navigate Direct To)
Done.

I have always used this buttonology and never expected the navigator to send flightpath or selected active leg info to other devices.

But then, I learned to fly before the time of magenta lines, X-Fill, and inter-device data transfer.  I am so thankful for the marvel in my panel known as the IFD and the one on my lap known as Foreflight.  It never occurred to me to expect for one to autonomously update flight path commands on the other device.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 10:51am
Originally posted by daveS daveS wrote:

Hey Steve — have you had a chance to look at whether the Direct-to issue is on the Avidyne side or Foreflight?
Sorry, that one slipped through the cracks.  The interface used for "Load from Panel" doesn't contain an indication of whether a flight plan leg is a direct-to.  I suppose it's possible that an EFB could use information from other interfaces to figure it out.
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 12:40pm
thanks, Steve.  I assume to make this work the IFD would need to insert a LAT/LON waypoint to indicate the point at which the 'Direct' was initiated since it looks like hitting 'Direct' doesn't actually change the flightplan.  Right?
.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 12:53pm
A direct-to does change the flight plan.  The issue is that the flight plan is sent to the EFB as a stored route and stored routes don't contain direct-tos.  The reason for that just comes down to design intent.  The scenario we designed for was that you would enter the flight plan into the IFD, send it to the EFB, and that's that.  More of a strategic view.

We can consider changing the design but that would take a while to coordinate with everyone involved.

Absent such a change, your best bet is to do direct-to on the IFD and then on the EFB.  Admittedly, that's inconvenient and could cause the EFB and IFD to be slightly different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 2:02pm
Appreciate the explanation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roemeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 10:43am
I've always done essentially the flow @AviSteve mentioned:
  • D-to on the IFD
  • Confirm established on the new course (IOW, wait a few seconds)
  • D-to on ForeFlight
In flight, I use ForeFlight more for planning reroutes for weather and such. Before flight, I do a one-time "send to IFD" after planning but before calling for clearance. If the clearance is "as filed" or very close to it, I load the route and activate (and make any needed changes). If I get a full route clearance, I build it on the IFD and retrieve it in ForeFlight.


Edited by roemeister - 17 Feb 2022 at 5:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 1:57pm
It all comes down to usage of FF in the cockpit.  There are still a lot of round gauge planes out there where they may have only an IFD440 navigator in the panel so FF on an iPad is more integral in their flying.   Even in the Cirrus world, some G1 owners are replacing their EX5000 with iPads running FF as the MFDs.   Having FF reflect the current flightplan with minimal user interaction would seem to be an important function to this group of pilots.

In the end, it is all doable, but it's more manual than I'd prefer.  YMMV.
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