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New MLB100 978 MHz ADS-B In Receiver

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AviJake View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New MLB100 978 MHz ADS-B In Receiver
    Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 7:28pm
Today Avidyne announced another part of the ADS-B product line.

See this link for an overview:


Let the questions begin.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FORANE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 7:38pm
How much?
Just in, not out?
Is out coming in another version?


Edited by FORANE - 09 Oct 2014 at 7:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 7:49pm
$2495.

Just "In".

"Out" is via the AXP340 Mode S Transponder.

The TAS6XXA is also a ADS-B "In" product that exists too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 8:06pm
Quote The TAS6XXA is also a ADS-B "In" product that exists too.

Well, not to be picky, but the -A is NOT available yet. I have the 605 and await the -A, maybe next Spring?

My question is:

1)  Timeline on the MLB100?

2)  How is the overlap between a TAS605 system upgraded to -A, when it becomes available, reconcile the two sources of traffic data?

* Orest


Edited by oskrypuch - 09 Oct 2014 at 8:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 8:11pm
1.  Plan on late winter/early spring 2015.
2.  We're working through those details.  I suspect most folks who want the MLB100 will use it for the ADS-B weather and to a lesser extent, the traffic.    We're working through the user interface of the traffic source indication including if it even matters.   Fun internal debate.

TAS-A should be in the spring too.


Edited by AviJake - 09 Oct 2014 at 8:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 10:51pm
ADSB-in weather receivers are a dime a dozen.  Plenty of inexpensive, highly-functional devices out there to do that today.  Hard to justify paying $3K to have it on my 540 instead of $500-$1000 to have it on my Nexus 7 or iPad.

Traffic is the differentiator.  An elegant and affordable solution for ADSB-out (to trigger the traffic broadcast from the FAA, and of course meet the 2020 mandate) plus a well-integrated ADSB-in receiver that can feed Wx and traffic to _all_ their displays--panel-mounted and portable alike--is what GA pilots are looking for.

From my perspective, Avidyne hasn't figured that out yet.  The AXP340+TAS6XXA/MLB100 isn't it:  Bugsmashers don't need 1090ES, they're better suited to 978-out where they can form their own mesh network in the lower altitudes if there's no ADSB tower around.  They don't need to mesh-network with the flight level traffic.  And the TAS box is just too darned expensive for the typical bugsmasher owner.  The MLB100 doesn't give me anything a far less-expensive solution--one that I already have, BTW--doesn't already provide.

Color me disappointed.


Edited by MysticCobra - 10 Oct 2014 at 6:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FORANE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 5:59am
Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

ADSB-in weather receivers are a dime a dozen.  Plenty of inexpensive, highly-functional devices out there to do that today.  Hard to justify paying $3K to have it on my 540 instead of $500-$1000 to have it on my Nexus 7 or iPad.

Traffic is the differentiator.  An elegant and affordable solution for ADSB-out (to trigger the traffic broadcast from the FAA) plus a well-integrated ADSB-in receiver that can feed Wx and traffic to _all_ their displays--panel-mounted and portable alike--is what GA pilots are looking for.

From my perspective, Avidyne hasn't figured that out yet.  The AXP340+TAS6XXA/MLB100 isn't it:  Bugsmashers don't need 1090ES, they're better suited to 978-out where they can form their own mesh network in the lower altitudes if there's no ADSB tower around.  They don't need to mesh-network with the flight level traffic.  And the TAS box is just too darned expensive for the typical bugsmasher owner.  The MLB100 doesn't give me anything a far less-expensive solution--one that I already have, BTW--doesn't already provide.

Color me disappointed.


I wasn't going to say it, but now that it has been said...
I too already have ads-b in, and yes it was relatively cheap.

This, exactly:
 An elegant and affordable solution for ADSB-out (to trigger the traffic broadcast from the FAA) plus a well-integrated ADSB-in receiver that can feed Wx and traffic to _all_ their displays--panel-mounted and portable alike--is what GA pilots are looking for.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 7:18am
If ADSB-in was integrated into a transponder, that would be a differentiator in the marketplace.  If I was in the market for a transponder that would probably sway my decision.  Short of that, Ill just keep it on my IPAD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 8:35am
Oh, on the contrary, I would say we totally get it and have figured it out.  Along those lines, this MLB100 product is not the only one we'll create to provide a broad set of options/solutions for the market.

We would certainly agree that some of the architectures/combos you guys suggest are a very good set for a large part of the market.

This current set of options/solutions does work quite well for number of folks and for those for whom it doesn't, we will eventually have some more available options/solutions to consider.





Edited by AviJake - 10 Oct 2014 at 8:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 11:28am
I have been looking for a way to put weather on the 540 screen, well first I need to get a 540, but I digress ...

There is a satellite downlink solution available currently, but the cost is $5000+ installed, and then there is the $1000/year subscription, and it won't populate my ASPEN.

A certificated ADS-B in, for me, might be just about perfect. Especially given its lower install & $0 subscription cost, and the chance that it might feed the ASPEN. It is only a part solution, as it is US only and then with the limitations of ADS-B coverage, but I spend a lot of time in the US, and most of the time I'm in the near border regions where ADS-B weather will still populate.

Traffic doesn't matter to me as I have an active traffic solution.

I have a tablet in the cockpit, but seldom use it except maybe to pull up charts, it is a backup. On a longer trip I may pull it out and play with it. For me, everything is on the panel. I recognize I may be perhaps a minority.

In any case, I look forward to seeing other solutions as well. The MLB100 alone will not supplant a more "portables" focused cockpit, which is likely the majority, unless you can feed that data out by wifi/bluehost. Hmm.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 10 Oct 2014 at 11:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 11:33am
I would take a slightly different tack.

The TXP gets you ADS-B out whether or not you choose to use a portable/iPad for ADS-B in (display).

I like what I am doing with thee TXP and the TAS device - at least around a high density traffic area (PHX class Bravo) - got it covered. The TAS (someday) will integrate active transponder trafffic with ADS-B traffic (again, someday..)

Then add the receive only box (and as stated there are bunches out there) - voila!

My total cost for ADS-B in/out (sans install, which is also trivial) is going to be ~ 3.2K. Completely functional, and fully 2020 compliant.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SB Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 1:09pm

Very interesting.

Jake, do you know if the unit (or the 540) will provide an audio "traffic" alert?

I like to fly with my eyes outside the cockpit and ideally a traffic system would give me an audio alert that I'd missed something. A quick glance at the display to find out where the traffic is then eyes back outside to identify the target. That's the thought...

Regards, Jim



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2014 at 7:14pm
Let's say hypothetically that I have an Aspen Evolution system, an Aspen datalink receiver, an AXP-340, an IFD-540, and a TAS-605A with your eventual upgrade to support ADS-B In.

I'm trying to figure out if this new MLB100 adds any functionality.

It seems that it would provide TIS-B, but I should be able to get that via the TAS-605A.  It will provide FIS-B, but I should get equivalent data from the Aspen receiver (which can be displayed on the 540, right?).  The Aspen has a subscription cost, but it works on the ground, which is not guaranteed with FIS-B, and the weather products are not geographically limited in the same way as FIS-B.

If I'm reading it correctly, the MLB-100 is not a full UAT, it is just a receiver on the UAT band, correct?  That means that the only thing I should get that is not provided by my existing equipment would be the air-to-air reports from other aircraft that have a UAT rather than 1090-ES output.  And those aircraft should show up either via ADS-R through the TAS-605A, or via the TAS-605's interrogation of their Mode C transponder, although the latter would not have the precise data available with ADS-B.

I guess you might eventually allow relay of some of the FIS-B data through the 540's wireless radios to portables like an iPad, but that's not announced yet.  I don't know if the same thing would be possible with the datalink stuff coming from the Aspen receiver.  They don't seem to support it via Connected Panel, but I don't know if that's a licensing issue from the data provider, or just their own lack of development of that product.

Have I got that more or less correct?


Edited by MikeK - 18 Oct 2014 at 7:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2014 at 8:38pm
At present there is no interoperability with ASPEN weather and the IFD540, I investigated that. That may change. There is a solution for downlink weather to the 540, but that won't propagate to the ASPEN.

Mike - in your setup (very similar to mine), the MLB100 will give you FIS-B on the 540, and that's about it. It may however propagate back to the ASPEN, but that is unknown at the moment.

However, that is a relatively cheap way to get some level of weather on the 540, and the 540 does a dazzling job of displaying and using weather data.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 18 Oct 2014 at 10:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2014 at 10:26pm
Yah, Mike and Orest have it correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2014 at 3:29am
I do hope that support for Heads Up and Aspen weather makes it into a later release.  (I understand that Heads Up built the Aspen box, so it should be possible to share some of the work between the two.)  I can display the weather on the Aspen MFD of course, but I would like the flexibility of having it on the 540's screen if desired.

Thanks for the confirmation, Steve!  Complicated stuff to understand with all the different ADS-B frequencies out there...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2014 at 11:07am
Ditto that.

By Heads Up, do you mean Navworx? Or Freeflight?  Don't know and can't find a Heads Up company.

I would suggest that since Avidyne sort of herded us in the Aspen direction (DFC90), and even though that dating relationship may have cooled <heard anything about Connected Panel within last 2 years?> Avidyne would be wise to try to interoperate with Aspen equipment.

I am prewired for Aspen's dual frequency display box <they say Q1 2015>, and as mentioned above I would like for it to be able to display ADS-B Wx on both the Aspen MFD and the dual 540s I now have.


Edited by ddgates - 19 Oct 2014 at 11:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2014 at 7:15am
Heads Up Technologies:

http://www.heads-up.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sikhpilotmd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 4:08pm
Any further updates on this? Availability? Features?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jblodgett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 7:33pm
Are there plans to offer a dual frequency (978/1090) receiver in the future? 

Thanks,
Jim


Edited by jblodgett - 11 Dec 2014 at 7:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 7:58am
We're timing the release to come out with the accompanying IFD540/440 Software Release 10.1 which includes support for it.  That is looking like the March timeframe.

The EX500/600/5000 will also support it.

Other products are in the pipeline too (like dual band devices) but are further out, schedule-wise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 8:21am
I did not see a form for the older weather products like the MLB700, so, I'll ask it here. The following was in AvWeb this morning regarding the new iPad weather box from SiruisXM

"The SXAR1 won't receive the WxWorx XM Weather data that is provided by Baron Services. It is unknown how long older broadcast receivers—including the first generation Garmin GXM-series receivers that interface with older Garmin portable GPS systems—will continue to work.

As we go to press, Garmin announced the GDL69 SXM receiver, the next-generation unit that will receive the new weather packages. "

This seems to indicate movement on the new weather protocol discussed at Oshkosh several years ago. I'm still in the camp that I'd rather pay for a more reliable weather service than ADS-B, and am wondering if notice has been given that the older products will be sunset? And If Avidyne is planning on developing a product based around the new protocol and available with SiriusXM music?

Edited by Gring - 12 Dec 2014 at 8:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2014 at 10:11am
Gring,
During one of my past job assignments ( 9 yrs ago) I was deeply involved with Sirius and XM
tuner design (for cars).   I still have and operate both legacy portable receivers.  Since millions of Sirius and XM car receivers (and portable) are still in use/functioning creating income for the new
SiriusXM merged company,  I strongly believe they will continue to transmit legacy (compatible) signals to support these old units, as long as enough income is received. Same applies to the thousands of XM aviation weather receivers.  Old portable XM aviation receivers can be upgraded
with new receiver software ( had to do this several years ago-mandatory to continue to receive).
I am not familiar with software upgrades for certified old XM aviation installed receivers,
I would think it is possible.
 
However parts to repair the old units (greater than 10 yrs old) will likely become a problem, causing companies like Garmin to no longer provide repair support in the future.
 
Since Avidyne provides interface support for the "old" Garmin GDL69/69A units, I would think they
will also provide support for the expanded feature new GDL69SXM ( in time).  It is easier for
Avidyne to interface a new Garmin SXM weather receiver than design from scratch/certify a
unique Avidyne SXM receiver (my opinion).
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 888dom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2014 at 7:22pm

As much as I hate to put my eggs in one basket - I understand the market capture protocol as well.  This being said, I was an early prepurchaser of the IFD540 and have just ordered the AXP 340 to replace my KT76A.  (Hopefully it ships ASAP!)  I'm interested in the ADS-B WX and Traffic IN on my 540.  I, like many others, fly with an IPad.  They are awesome.  BUT, in order to get ADS-B wx in on the iPad, requires spending an additional $1k (or so), plus having another box to charge, maintain, etc.  Cords in the cockpit anyone? No thanks. 

My question is - for those of us who have given you our first born's inheritance, are you anticipating any deals on the MLB100? I purchased the 540 to be on the brink of technology at a discounted price and will strongly consider the MLB100 if you have a similar offering. 

Also, I'd really like to see the certification path for installation to go like this:

1) The MLB100 uses the IFD 540 as a position source, negating the need for an additional antenna.

2) The MLB100 uses the AXP340 and the existing transponder antenna for all things ADS-B related, also negating the need for an additional antenna.

3) There will be no additional need for an airspeed switch or air/ground mode device.

4) The MLB100 will send ADS-B traffic and weather to an iPad via the wifi/Bluetooth within the IFD540 (or an internal transmitter).

5) This data sent out via wifi/Bluetooth will work with ForeFlight.

6) The MLB 100 will eventually also send/receive WX, TIS-A/B traffic to the Aspen PFD.

7) The pricing should be somewhere in the $1500 (or less) range.  As this solution is only ADS-B "IN", and you must pay for installation as well, you must keep it competitive with the portables. Are they worth $800-1000? Maybe if it is going to cost $3500 for a certified unit with the exact same functionality. An AXP-340 meets the FAA mandate.  The MLB is just 'fluff' and nice to have, though I'd buy one in a heartbeat for the right price.

I can buy a Freeflight Ranger 978 today for $3995, it outputs to the iPad, they are working with Aspen, Foreflight, and it would even put traffic on the 530/540.  They claim they are working with you for ADS-B weather too (which you may not do since you are working on your own box).  However, if you compare apples to apples - $3995 gets you ADS-B in and out, with several display options in one box without a new transponder.  The AXP340 - $3995 + MLB100 $2500 makes your equivalent solution $6500.  Enter smart minded consumers and free market capitalism.  I suspect that this means you should rethink your strategy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 12:38pm
Steve,

I've drunk the Kool-Aid, and would like to put my name on the list for the MLB100.  Is there any way to do a pre-order?  Maybe a deposit for a delivery slot?  In other words, I'm calling SHOTGUN!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 3:39pm
Luckily the front seat is a wide bench-like seat that should accommodate everybody who has called shotgun so far.

I've forwarded the question on pre-buy or queue assignment since I don't know the answer.

We are timing the shipments of the MLB100 to be aligned with IFD540 Release 10.1 in the early spring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 11:10pm
The MLB100 + AXP340 is NOT a solution. Since the 340 is 1090 out, the FAA assumes you have 1090 in and doesn't rebroadcast other 1090 traffic. Without 1090-in you are blind to 1090 traffic unless there happens to be a UAT -out equipped aircraft in your immediate vicinity AND you are in TIS-B coverage.

No thanks. The only meaningful solution for the majority of aircraft is dual-band in. Almost trivial design delta from a UAT-only receiver, and the only way to have protection in non-radar or non TIS-B airspace.

I'll stick with a portable until a real solution becomes available.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by AzAv8r AzAv8r wrote:

The MLB100 + AXP340 is NOT a solution. Since the 340 is 1090 out, the FAA assumes you have 1090 in and doesn't rebroadcast other 1090 traffic.  

That is the first I've heard of such a suggestion, I don't believe you have that right.

Ground station ADS-B rebroadcasts blend all data sources of traffic, including 1090, UAT & conventional secondary radar, they do not delete certain elements based on where they were sourced.

Further, all ADS-B OUT devices also transmit what ADS-B IN capability is on board. I would expect that that is what drives what frequency ADS-B rebroadcast is sent on.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Feb 2015 at 11:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 8:39am
Quote Since the 340 is 1090 out, the FAA assumes you have 1090 in and doesn't rebroadcast other 1090 traffic.

This contradicts everything I have read or heard about how ADS-B operates.  Although some experts have contradicted others this doesn't match any of them.  Could you tell me where it comes from?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrm356 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:56am
Originally posted by AzAv8r AzAv8r wrote:

The MLB100 + AXP340 is NOT a solution. Since the 340 is 1090 out, the FAA assumes you have 1090 in and doesn't rebroadcast other 1090 traffic. Without 1090-in you are blind to 1090 traffic unless there happens to be a UAT -out equipped aircraft in your immediate vicinity AND you are in TIS-B coverage.
.
 
The AXP340 has a configuration entry to indicate what type of ADS-B In service you have installed.  It is possible this is ignored.  But from Trig's site:
 
"It is worth pointing out that in the US the FAA infrastructure will rebroadcast information between 1090 ES and UAT systems so that the traffic information is available identically on either data link. With the weather data available on UAT, the UAT data link therefore contains all the information you might need.  There is no requirement for your ADS-B In receiver to use the same technology as your ADS-B Out system, and in the US there is therefore a good argument for using a 1090 ES ADS-B Out solution together with UAT for ADS-B In."
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scastelino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 12:41pm
So I'm a bit confused - if I have the MLB100 and an existing TAS system (I have a skywatch).  What will I get on my MFD?  Date from both?  just one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 8:54pm
I am not familiar with the skywatch TAS unit, however Sagetech (Clarity ADSB website) states:
• ADS-R (Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Rebroadcast) is a simple repeater. Messages received on 1090 MHz are re-broadcast on 978 MHz, and messages received on 978 MHz are re-broadcast on 1090 MHz. This makes a data-connection between the two ADS-B channels.
Again, the ADS-B Out limitation applies equally here. Only aircraft with the right kind of ADS-B Out equipment willreceive traffic targets over ADS-R.
 
 If my airplane has ADS-B Out, will I receive TIS-B/ADS-R Traffic near my aircraft?

A: Maybe. If ALL of the following are true, you’ll get TIS-B/ADS-R Traffic:
- Your ADS-B transmitter has to comply with the most recent version of ADS-B out (currently version 3). Note that the present version of the Garmin 330 is not of the latest standard, so it is our understanding that users of Garmin 330ES with ADS-B Out will NOT receive TIS-B/ADS-R
- Your transmitter must also have the appropriate configuration to indicate receive capability on either 1090 MHz, 978 MHz, or both. Then you‘ll receive TIS-B on the indicated receive channel. If your equipment states receive capability on both 978 MHz and 1090 MHz, you’ll receive TIS-B on only 978 MHz. You’ll also receive ADS-R on the indicated receive channel. Clarity receives on both 978 MHz and 1090 MHz.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:12pm
I would be thrilled to learn that my assertion is incorrect, but I have been collecting (and reading) all ADS-B technical documents I could get my hands on for several years. 

Right up until the final TSO versions, it was pretty easy to find them online via Google at FAA and ICAO websites.  Everything in those documents indicates that rebroadcast is cross-band only.  Nothing I have found indicates that the FAA will retransmit in the same band, which would be necessary for a UAT-In to provide traffic information in conjunction with UAT out.   The description in the current AIM (sec 4-5-10) clearly states "translation".  Given that the RTCA, ICAO, and FAA documents all agree that there is no in-band retransmission, and that there are technical (spectrum) reasons to not do so, I am highly skeptical that the FAA intends to support that.

The message definitions for UAT-out would in fact allow in-band retransmission, because the UAT reports the specific ADS-B In band that is installed in the aircraft.  But I find no such message in the 1090ES documents I have.  It might be there, but if so I missed it.

I'll note the Trig statement is ambiguous, and can be interpreted either as "in-band retransmission" or "translation".   But the former definition directly conflicts with FAA, RTCA, and ICAO statements, and the latter conflicts with the message they are trying to convey.

Hopefully someone will prove me wrong.  Note that it "can work" is not the same as "it will work", because the FAA has to be committed to continuing any in-band retransmission they might currently be doing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:17pm
Oops, in the second paragraph that should be "...would be necessary for a UAT-In to provide traffic information in conjunction with 1090ES-OUT."

Here's the AIM section:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0405.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by AzAv8r AzAv8r wrote:

Oops, in the second paragraph that should be "...would be necessary for a UAT-In to provide traffic information in conjunction with 1090ES-OUT."

Note that you can use the "Post Options" button (for a limited time after posting) to Edit your message, rather than posting a separate reply with a correction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:59pm
One other point, (almost) independent of the ADS-R band issue, is that a dual-band receiver provides traffic outside of the ground ADS station service volume, something valuable in mountainous areas at lower elevations.  After 2020 (assuming the mandate holds), you'll have all traffic, anywhere in the US (well, excepting traffic operated by scofflaws.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrm356 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 1:00am
Aircraft under 18,000' outside a mode C veil won't be required to have ADS-B Out, dual band will not see them.

Back to ADS-R

From AC 20-165A  11/07/12

3-2 ADS-B Equipment  b(2)
"(2) Mixed transmit/receive classifications. TSO-C166b and TSO-C154c allow Class A transmit-only and Class A receive-only equipment configurations. There are no restrictions for installing a certain class of receive equipment with a different class of transmit equipment. For example, a Class A3 transmit-only unit can be used in the same aircraft with a Class A1 receive-only unit. It is also acceptable to have a TSO-C166b transmitter and a TSO-C154c receiver and vice versa."

TSO-C166b is 1090, TSO-C154c is 978


and section 4, talking about multiple ADS-B Out systems
"Note: 2: Installation of dual 1090ES and UAT ADS-B IN capability is acceptable and encouraged."

 http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-165A.pdf

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 9:47am
From the Garmin ADS-B Academy website:
The FAA wants to encourage GA pilots whose aircraft typically operate below 18,000 ft to opt for 978 UAT, and thus help minimize congestion on the 1090 MHz frequency. The thinking is that a variety of free added-value features will further incentivize GA owners to adopt some form of 978 UAT for their ADS-B solution. It should also be pointed out that since the FAA’s infrastructure will rebroadcast information between 1090 ES and 978 UAT systems, it’s also possible for users to install a mixed ADS-B solution — for example, one using an ES transponder for ADS-B “Out” and a 978 UAT datalink receiver for ADS-B “In”. A variety of intriguing combinations can be considered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Jet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2015 at 12:48am
Steve. is Avidyne going to make a transponder similar to the L-3 9000, but without the waas receiver. There seems to be quite a few ADS-B in/out solutions coming to market so I'm a bit hesitant to install the AXP340/MLB100 combo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2015 at 9:50am
There are a host of configurations and options that will come from us as we get closer to the mandate but as for your specific example, I'm pretty sure the price of the L-3 unit is meaningfully more expensive than the combined AXP340/MLB100.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2015 at 9:58am
For those of us who have AXP340s, and who will have the ADS-B upgrade to our TAS units, all we are going to need is a FIS-B receiver.

Any plans to help us out?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jblodgett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2015 at 11:45am
Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

We're timing the release to come out with the accompanying IFD540/440 Software Release 10.1 which includes support for it.  That is looking like the March timeframe.

The EX500/600/5000 will also support it.

Other products are in the pipeline too (like dual band devices) but are further out, schedule-wise.


Steve,

Do you have an update on the certification of the MLB100 and the software release 10.1 for the IFD-540?

Thanks,
Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2015 at 11:47am
MLB100 cert should be late April/early May.

Release 10.1.0.0 cert should be late April - we're driving to a Sun-n-Fun cert.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2015 at 4:10pm
Any pre-order deal available? :-)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SB Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 5:31pm

Jake,

I've got the IFD 540 and AXP 340 installed and playing nicely.

Will the MLB 100 do the following:

1. Provide an aural traffic alert (e.g., "Traffic, 3 o'clock, high")?

2. Provide ADS-B In traffic display on the 540?

3. Provide FIS-B weather to the 540?

If so, I'm very interested. If it just goes to an iPad app I've already got all that for quite a bit less $$ with the GDL 39.

Regards, Jim

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 6:35pm
Jim,
Congrats on the 540/340.  Glad to see you have moved from the 480 world - I am making the same move in 2-weeks and had been so reluctant at first to give up the great 480.

Only a few small functions I will miss on the 480, but so much more on the 540 - I described the 540 to Keith Thomassen as a 480 on steroids!

Good luck.

Tom W.


Edited by n7ifr - 14 Apr 2015 at 6:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by SB Jim SB Jim wrote:

Jake,

I've got the IFD 540 and AXP 340 installed and playing nicely.

Will the MLB 100 do the following:

1. Provide an aural traffic alert (e.g., "Traffic, 3 o'clock, high")?

2. Provide ADS-B In traffic display on the 540?

3. Provide FIS-B weather to the 540?

If so, I'm very interested. If it just goes to an iPad app I've already got all that for quite a bit less $$ with the GDL 39.

Regards, Jim


1.  Yes, that's the plan.
2.  Yes, BUT......the FAA did not like our implementation of the traffic icons so we had to pull that part out of Release 10.1.0.0.  We will be adding it pronto after 10.1 and the 440 are released.
3.  Yes, that's included in Release 10.1.0.0.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:30pm
Why wouldn't the same icons as depicting TAS traffic be acceptable.

"..the plan" tells me callouts are not going to be a part of the MLB release package V1.0.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:34pm
ADS-B guidance calls for directional indication for ADS-B traffic.  That is not the case for TAS traffic icons.

Since we don't have that, then we are not permitted to display ADS-B traffic in Release 10.1.0.0 - this was the source of great confusion and conflicting guidance, neither of which were straightened out prior to going into software test-for-credit and documentation submission.   And since we don't display ADS-B traffic, there is no aural alerting.

Both will come in a follow-on release to 10.1.0.0.
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