Seattle Avionics Alternative to Jeppesen
Printed From: Avidyne
Category: Avidyne General
Forum Name: IFD 5 Series & IFD 4 Series Touch Screen GPS/NAV/COM
Forum Description: Topics on Avidyne's IFD 5 Series and IFD 4 Series Touch Screen GPS/NAV/COM
URL: http://forums.avidyne.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1410
Printed Date: 22 Nov 2024 at 5:02am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Seattle Avionics Alternative to Jeppesen
Posted By: compasst
Subject: Seattle Avionics Alternative to Jeppesen
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 7:55pm
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I'm requesting that all interested owners of Avidyne IFD units add to this post requesting that Avidyne take a renewed and concerted effort to get charts and data from Seattle Avionics. As background info, I have a relationship with some of the principal people at SA due to my beta testing with them for a couple years now. Today, I asked my contact to renew efforts to get approved as a data supplier to Avidyne IFD devices. His response was - "We're talking to Avidyne and hope to get something worked out. They have a lot on their plate and this never seems to be top of their list. Feel free to bug them as we're very happy to work with them." Thanks to all who want a second source and who take the time to ask Avidyne to put this 'top of their list'.
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Replies:
Posted By: MarkZ
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 9:10pm
| I'm in!! Doesn't hurt my feelings to ditch Jeppesen. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 9:49pm
| Count me in. |
Posted By: mccdeuce
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 10:26pm
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Do not like Jepp. Their product is sub par. Their website is from the 90s. We need competition. Just like what Avidyne did to the GPS market we need Avidyne to allow Seattle Avionics. |
Posted By: LANCE
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 11:54pm
| This subject has been beaten to death over and over. The units we bought use Jeppesen data. We were aware of that at the time of purchase. Would it be nice if the data cost less? Sure, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. |
Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 7:29am
| Not a fan of Jepp. Would like to see an option for data source. |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 9:08am
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I would love to see this become viable option for us. |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 9:47am
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Much prefer Jepp plates, especially for non-US use. As far as data, well navdata is navdata, but I've seen some folks that have had real problems with SA update procedures. Of course a choice could be offered, but integration would require significant work I expect, and resources might be better spent elsewhere. * Orest |
Posted By: AzAv8r
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 10:18am
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I'm waiting for Seattle Avionics Data. When I bought my IFD at Osh 2011, I specifically asked about alternative data sources before I gave them my credit card, and was told essentially "initially Jepp only, but another source was expected once one was viable." Seattle Avionics is viable. |
Posted By: comancheguy
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 12:13pm
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My wish list: 1) Private airports in the database 2) G5 support 3) Competition for Jepp 4) Moving radar shots - looping to show movement |
Posted By: Cruiser
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 3:23pm
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I am a Seattle Avionics customer, I want SA to provide database data for my IFD540/440 GPS requirements
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Posted By: pburger
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 11:43pm
| I live at a private airport and it is in the database. |
Posted By: BobsV35B
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 9:57am
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We also live at a private airport. (LL22) It IS in the Jeppesen, Avidyne, and ForeFlight databases. Happy Skies, Old Bob ------------- Old Bob, Ancient Aviator |
Posted By: Freff
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 4:12pm
| The one thing that I really don't like about my IFD is Jeppesen. Every year when my renewal comes up I think about selling my IFD and replacing it. But if Avidyne offered an alternative to Jeppesen I don't know why anyone would buy an alternative product to the IFD. |
Posted By: BobsV35B
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:46pm
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------------- Old Bob, Ancient Aviator |
Posted By: BobsV35B
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:50pm
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Good Afternoon Freff. I guess the point is that we tend to get to like what we know. Having used Jeppesen since 1951, I am just used to it. I DO agree it is overpriced, but I sure prefer the product to any other mapping data function. Happy Skies, Old Bob ------------- Old Bob, Ancient Aviator |
Posted By: skitheo
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:55pm
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Count me as someone who would strongly prefer an option to subscribe to someone _other than_ Jeppesen supplying data for my IFD540. If it's SA, then great. Unlike Orest, I do not use plates on the IFD540. I prefer to display them on something else, i.e. tablet, paper, etc. Only occasionally to I pull up an airport diagram on the IFD.
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Posted By: nrproces
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2017 at 7:58am
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Me too!
I am a Seattle Avionics customer and beta tester, I want SA to provide database data for my IFD540/440 GPS requirements. Their product support is a magnitude above the "George Jepsen's" and you don't need the treadmill that the Jep website insists on. ------------- Sauce |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 9:40pm
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According to the Seattle Avionics website a US IFR ChartData subscription for a KSN 770 is $299. A European subscription is $649. And Australia is $349. I don't quite understand Garmin's pricing but from what I've seen their charts are cheaper than Jepp's. Of the three aviation GPS manufacturers only Avidyne doesn't offer a lower cost alternative to Jeppesen. |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 9:34am
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I talked to Seattle avionics over a year ago. At that time they were
ready and willing to go ahead and begin the work. They were just
waiting for the go ahead from Avidyne. I do know that there is a fair
amount of testing Avidyne would have to perform to validate that the nav
data in the IFD platform. I would hope that most of the testing could
be done in the lab with just a small subset validated in flight. I just
cant see the business case for Avidyne to put the effort in. I hope
I'm wrong and there is a business case. Simpson if your reading these, please give us a second source for Nav data. Charts will always be more cost effective on foreflight. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 9:30pm
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I'm sure there is a business case for less expensive charts and plates. How about this one: The Dynon Certified Skyview HDX panels are a disruptor if not a game changer for glass panels. But they don't include a GPS. How about a package with a Dynon panel and an IFD 440 with a Seattle Avionics data bundle? This could be very appealing to flight schools as a way to offer a TAA at a cost much less than that of a G-1000 equipped 172SP. It would definitely be to Avidyne's advantage to have students learning on an IFD rather than a GTN or GNS. Or this one: There are may legacy aircraft pilots who occasionally fly in benign IFR and who would really like to have a panel IFR so they can file /G and fly WAAS approaches. When they decide to make the big investment they look at the Garmin 650 and the Avidyne 440. Being able to advertise "Charts, all you need for legal IFR - $299 per year or $1495 lifetime" may swing the decision of someone who has been saving for years or has taken out a loan for this purchase. |
Posted By: n7ifr
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 12:12am
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Nice thread - Great minds think alike. No surprise so many SA subscribers also have Avidyne product in their panels. SA instrument plate subscriptions would give Avidyne a great competitive edge over G-----, offering an alternative for IAP's. Seattle Avionics is one of the few vendors that has already made its iPad App (FlyQ) fully Avidyne WiFi-ADSB and Flight Plan compatible!! Avidyne - why not give Jepp some competition - Seattle Avionics will be a breath of fresh air for our 540 and 550's and allow us to use the NACO plates we love at a fraction of the Jepp cost!!! Tom W. |
Posted By: ksdoc
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 12:25pm
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I've been a Jepp user with my Avidyne products for years. The Jepp manager on my Mac works great with not only the 440 but the old Garmin GMX200 and the Aspen data. I tried the trial subscription for SA on the Aspen 2500, but stopped using it after the first attempt. Just a terrible interface and download. I don't know if that is unique to Mac, but it was so bad I would not waste my time even if the data for the 440 or Aspen was available and cheaper. Plus, the chart subscription does not even include airport diagrams for my home base (KPAN) or for Pagosa. I understand it is only for the larger airports. Unless SA improves the download manager for Mac, I'm happy to stay with Jepp, though I accept I'm paying more for the data. ------------- kansasdoc |
Posted By: n7ifr
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 12:46pm
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Larry, There have been many complaints about the Mac-SA interface for downloading Aspen chart data, but. the PC interface works very well, albeit a bit slower than the Jepp interface. In all fairness, I believe the issue to have SA be a Chart Provider (or not) for Avidyne is not related to the 540/440 Nav-Data, just approach Charts (not available on the 440). Agree, not sure why the Aspen-SA database doesn't have the Airport diagrams for KPSO or KPAN, and why their iPad App (FlyQ) does have all airports (just like FF)... not sure why the difference. BTW, how's the hangar search? Tom W.
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Posted By: ksdoc
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 1:53pm
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Tom, PM sent ------------- kansasdoc |
Posted By: TurboPA30
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 2:58am
| My 3 IFD 540, the EX600 and EX5000 all would be on a Seattle Avionics Subscription if that happens. |
Posted By: n7ifr
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 10:22am
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Larry, thanks for the PM. Emailed with Steve P. @ SA about the "disconnect" with lack of Airport Diagrams on Aspen DB compared with SA's FlyQ DB - The Aspen DB including the Nav-Data is directly from FAA and distributed by Jeppesen ($), and SA is not in that loop. SA provides the Aspen Approach Charts only. We can only hope Avidyne is aware of this large interest group to have SA as a competetive supplier for our 540/550 Charts and Airport Diagrams. Tom W. |
Posted By: skitheo
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 9:49pm
| There are quite a few of us asking, but I haven't seen any response from AviSimpson, nor anyone else from Avidyne. What should we infer from that? |
Posted By: MarkZ
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2017 at 7:40am
| It ain’t gonna happen? |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2017 at 7:45am
| I concur |
Posted By: jwjenks
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 10:37am
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I asked Avidyne at Oshkosh when they would start accepting other (SA) databases. They would not give me an answer. SA told me at Oshkosh their subscription for charts and Nav would be less than $200/yr. My friends private airport, DE25, is not in Jeppesen but is in SA. Not only that but I do a lot of NYC work, 127.85 is listed as a LGA frequency, it is actually a Newark frequency. I called Jepp to point out the error, they said they wouldn't change it. Another pilot, does 15hrs training per wk, at my airport who just got his first GPS (G700) said if Avidyne had SA charts he would have got an IFD 540 if subscription costs were $200/yr that I told him about. ------------- JWJ |
Posted By: M20Kid
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 5:44pm
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What I know is that competition keeps the costs in line for everyone. Left to their own devices Jeppesen will always charge a kings ransom for their products. If we can get SA as an additional approved supplier for the 440/540 line, then we can all make the choice that fits our needs and budgets the best. Some will surely stay with Jeppesen, but other (like me) would jump the Jeppesen ship in a heartbeat if SA data were available. I spoke with one of the Avidyne reps at Oshkosh and mentioned that 9 years of Jeppesen data equaled the initial purchase price of the 540. How many people do you suspect do the math and refuse to buy a 540 due to the ongoing cost of data? How many additional units could Avidyne sell if they just had a more reasonable data supplier? I don't know the answers but I'm sure they have lost business because of their inability to use more economical data. Let's push to make this happen! |
Posted By: FlyingCOham
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 7:08pm
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"they said they wouldn't change it." Interesting. Several years ago I found a similar error (freq in wrong place) and called Jepp about it. The person that took the call put me through to a specialist who agreed and promised it would be addressed. It took several cycles but it was fixed. Some people care and some just don't. ( : < ) ------------- Jim Patton |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 7:20pm
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Jepp is very interested in the accuracy of their data, and in my experience do solicit and investigate corrections offered. It is also fairly easy to add private airports (recent topic), that may not be in the database, you just call them with the details. * Orest |
Posted By: MarkZ
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 8:33pm
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Mark me down for jumping off the Jeppesen ship the second the opportunity comes available. Through the years I’ve given them a King's ransom not to mention the time I spent in those leather binders!! |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 9:34am
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I'm guessing there must be a business arrangement that was made early on in the development that Avidyne can't get out of. Something like Jepp invested their own Funds for the DO-200 cert on this platform. I have no way of knowing, just speculating. The silence is telling. Kinda made a deal with the devil. If the interface is truly open, then there is nothing stopping SA from taking on a cert of there own. |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2017 at 1:46pm
We are listening and this topic is nothing new. We have had numerous conversations in the past and in the last 6 months with Seattle Avionics about providing data to the IFDs. Out of those discussions, we identified many hurdles that would need to be addressed in order for their chart data to be implemented on the IFDs. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
skitheo wrote:Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:09am
Thank you Simpson for the response. Is the same true for the Nav data? I'm not interested in the charts, and I would guess others feel the same as I do. The charts on Foreflight are just find for me. |
Posted By: 94S
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:18am
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[/QUOTE]
Thank you Simpson for the response. Is the same true for the Nav data? I'm not interested in the charts, and I would guess others feel the same as I do. The charts on Foreflight are just find for me. [/QUOTE]I also am only interested in the nav data. I get my charts from SA's FlyQ app. |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:32am
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They do not provide certified navigation data. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: AzAv8r
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 10:05am
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In the US, *all* approved navigation data (and chart data) comes from the same source: the FAA. Jepp gets it there, as does Seattle Avionics, as does Foreflight,as does Avare (an open-source and free Android app), as does SkyVector.com . https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/ Charts are here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/ You can submit chart changes here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/Airport_Data_Changes_Public/ |
Posted By: Cruiser
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 7:16pm
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To process FAA approved NavData the supplier must obtain a LOA (Letter of Approval) stating they comply with RTCA DO-200A I have no idea what that means but I suspect Seattle Avionics does not have one.
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Posted By: Flying_Monkey
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 7:34pm
| Why doesn't Avidyne do this themselves? I wish I understood more about the complexity of the nav data. I know this sounds super ignorant (which is why I sincerely wish to learn more) but it seems like the FAA provides the FREE certified nav data to everyone. What is so difficult in re-formatting for a particular piece of hardware to use? I just don't get why it's so expensive when the FAA seems to be doing all the legwork in creating the data in the first place! |
Posted By: mfb
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 10:13pm
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Check out Advisory Circular 20-153A. It describes what the FAA requires for a company to get approved as a data supplier. The process doesn't look very easy to me. It's not something that Avidyne or anyone else can do in their spare time. Jeppesen's expertise is getting stuff like this done. Avidyne's isn't. Mike |
Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 10:14pm
| Plus, it would be a never-ending revenue stream after the initial hardware sale. What business wouldn't want that? |
Posted By: AzAv8r
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 9:21pm
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I don't see anything particularly daunting in AC 20-153A. Of course, I'm the kind of engineer who DOES do this kind of thing in his spare time. interesting problems related to things I care about are... INTERESTING! In my cursory review, it appears that both SA and Avidyne would need an LOA - but virtually all the LOA work for Avidyne would have already been done for Jepp. (Well, already done to be in the business they are in, documented for the FAA for the Jepp-related LOA.) I do not currently have access to RTCA's DO-200A, but my exposure to other RTCA documents would suggest there are a miriad of detailed checklist items to spend time addressing, but I see no reason to expect anything that would represent a sea change or significant effort for a competent commerical software provider. My conclusion (and this is of course speculation) is that one or more of the following is true: - Avidyne receives kickbacks from Jepp for data purchases. - Avidyne has a contract with Jepp that in return for some level of Jepp support provided during development/certification, Avidyne would not allow an alternative data provider (hopefully for a small finite period of time, but some people are not good negotiators...) - Jepp provided Avidyne proprietary code and an API to expedite development/certification, and Avidyne is unwilling or unable to sever themselves from that liability. (This is most disconcerting, for a lot of reasons.) |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 9:27pm
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Relevant to the conversation is that I got my renewal bill (for just Southwestern coverage area) = $1085 for the Avidynes and $450 for navdata only for the Aspens. This is absurd. We need choice! ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 10:15pm
That is odd, I have the full North America (have to to get Canada + US) navdata + obstacles, and all the charts for Canada and US, coast to coast, with the included up to four portable devices. Sub is $1850. Why are you paying so much, for so much less. * Orest |
Posted By: PeterC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 8:28am
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While at OSH this year, an Avidyne rep told me that one of the big issues was that to switch to SA would require a large effort in reprogramming and I presume they did not have resources to do that. Simpson alluded to a number of roadblock of which that may be one. I was told it was a huge undertaking. ------------- Peter - 1977 Cardinal RG C-FJPC - IFD550/540/240/322/605A/Skytrax100, Aspen MAX 2000, Trio A/P |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 9:13am
Orest: That's been the history with Jepp. Pricing all over the map. One price from one agent, another from another, etc. Jake was working to clean this up with them, but.... We need another option. The only way I can see to get this right is to introduce competition. Monopoly is the killer of customer service. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: LANCE
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 10:51am
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$1085 is for full USA Coverage. Call and use the item numbers below and they will correct it. In addition to that, if you are a COPA member (Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association - you don't have to own a Cirrus to be a member) you get 15 months of coverage for the price of 12 months.
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Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 11:32am
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Thank you. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 12:32pm
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so the way I think this works is:
So its not just go get the data from the government. Then all of these artifacts are presented in a report that Avidyne writes to their ACO and we wait, and wait, and wait (sometimes for years) until the unbridled bureaucrats say OK. |
Posted By: chflyer
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 1:11am
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I personally would rather see Avidyne put the resources on promised deliverables (some over 4 years old) than something like this that would divert resources from them. Let's see Avidyne deliver on their promises first, and fix bugs in delivered systems. ------------- Vince |
Posted By: nrproces
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 9:42am
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(chflyer) Any bias? Perhaps like Switzerland and SA doesnt work there, yet? ------------- Sauce |
Posted By: LANCE
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 10:00am
I agree 100% - and I'm in the U. S.
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Posted By: KIM
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 11:33am
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It would be very nice to get an update of the progress of 10.2.1; weeks, months, years or ?? The silence is scary! ------------- Klaus |
Posted By: AUXAIR
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 11:46am
+1 ------------- David E. Cessna 182 RG II |
Posted By: DavidBunin
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 1:13pm
I don't find the silence scary at all. It's normal. Every avionics company is ALWAYS working on a next software release, the difference here is that Avidyne gives us a peek behind the curtain to see what might be coming. Giving a progress update on any certification project is really hard, because the process is open-ended. The applicant submits a data package to the FAA and then the FAA (nominally) has 60~90 days to review the submitted data. But the review doesn't automatically end in approval. The FAA could reject the package, or the FAA can ask the applicant a question about it. (The "question" is usually as request for additional data or substantiation.) When the applicant answers the question or provides the requested data, a new 60~90 day clock starts at the FAA. That can end in the same three ways as above. In the words of Robert Heinlein, "Waiting is." |
Posted By: skitheo
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 11:58pm
However, AeroNavData does: http://aeronavdata.com/aeronautical-navigation-data/source-analysis/" rel="nofollow - https://aeronavdata.com/aeronautical-navigation-data/source-analysis/ Jeppesen does not have a monopoly, in spite of how it may feel. Most of Avidyne's competitors in the FMS/GPS navigator market have relationships with AeroNavData: http://aeronavdata.com/capabilities/aeronautical-expertise/fms-collaboration/" rel="nofollow - https://aeronavdata.com/capabilities/aeronautical-expertise/fms-collaboration/ |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 10:08am
I know the current silence on releases and product announcements is a departure from our historical trend. There is no need to be scared, we are working on numerous products and IFD releases. In regards to 10.2.1, we have been working on it for some time now and it's in the later stages of development. I will not post an update or release notes until we are closer to having it certified. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 10:14am
As much as I would like us to be compared with companies like GE Aviation and Rockwell Collins, it is a bit of a stretch. You will find that the majority of the companies listed do not provide products for the part 23 market. While this looks interesting, you will find that this provider is targeting a larger clientele and therefore it would likely come with a larger price tag. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 11:42am
That is good to know. Thank you. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: paulr
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2017 at 7:51am
| Another data point: the BendixKing update prices for the KLN94 are pretty eye-watering as well. Two years ago, before I got my 540, a single month's update was $280, and I seem to recall that a yearly subscription was in the $1000 range… and that's just for navdata, with no obstacles or charts. I'm not 100% sure but I'd expect they use the same data as the big Honeywell FMS so using those data sources might not be any cheaper, as Simpson says. |
Posted By: TurboPA30
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 12:51pm
| http://www.seattleavionics.com/ChartData/Default.aspx?TargetDevice=ksn |
Posted By: Cruiser
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 5:43pm
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There is a huge difference between the geo-referenced charts Seattle Avionics is supplying in the link above by TurboPA30 and certified NavData used by a GPS to follow an approach course. These are apples and oranges comparison.
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Posted By: Bob H
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:53am
SA vs. Jeppesen seems to be a pretty hot topic. I’ll disclose that I have used Jeppesen
products since the early 1980’s. I
started using Jepp electronic charts when they first came out when a tablet PC running
Windows XP was the only platform. That platform
has worked flawlessly right up until this year when I installed the IFD540. The NACO Charts have improved significantly
over all those years, so there is no longer a big differentiator. It is now just my personal preference.
However, from an Avidyne business model, I think it makes
good sense that Avidyne has selected Jeppesen as their single data supplier. Trying to work with multiple vendors is just
not cost effective or efficient in bringing a product to market. Jeppesen is a good choice as they have the largest
product portfolio with a world data platform.
But probably most importantly, they are used by many business, fleet,
and airline operators. They even customize
charts for many of these operators. These
factors give Avidyne the widest possible market to move into. The larger their market, the better for us GA
folks. There is some thought that competition is good, so prices
will come down if SA competes with Jepp.
I don’t think so. GA is a small
market. GA IFR is smaller. GA IFR Avidyne is even smaller. There just isn’t enough business to spread
around. Data vendor fixed costs will remain
the same and market share might drop in half.
That is a business model that often results in vendors exiting the
market or price increases to maintain margins.
At the least, it is a business model that may result in less resources
and less responsiveness to issues. I
trust Avidyne to maintain a strong business relationship with a single vendor
and to work with them on good support and reasonable pricing given the product
being delivered. This is why even after
product introduction, a single data vendor is appropriate. After all, if subscription costs get too high,
Avidyne will lose hardware sales. So, a second
vendor may not be the panacea it appears to be and may just have unintended
consequences. I, for one, hope that
Avidyne continues to cultivate and stick with a single data vendor. As a matter of curiosity, are there any certified
WAAS GPS units that have more than one data vendor? Liability costs are also a factor in pricing for
certified WAAS GPS data, so pricing comparisons should only be done between
certified boxes, not portable devices. I know that some folks find that charts on the IFD540 can
be difficult to read and that they have forgone paying for those charts anyway. There are certainly free geo-reference NACO chart
options that will run on an iPad or Android tablet and interface wirelessly with
an IFD. That is a good alternative when
wanting NACO charts over Jeppesen. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: nrproces
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 7:57am
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I also am in. (STILL) I Love Seattle Avionics. (Disclaimer; I am also one of those guys who must use Jepps in the day job) We (day job) are now going to transition from a Microsoft Surface to an IPad in the spring (which it what we should have done in the first place, but that is another topic, better left alone here.) The whole idea of "Open" is what we came to Avidyne for in the first place. I have been a beta tester for the SA EFB since the beginning, and since I have to use both platforms and 3 different EFB's to do my jobs and hobbies, I am pushing for Seattle Avionics as my choice. Note: I am totally convinced that their product is the best, it is the simplest and their "Customer Service" is absolutely miles ahead of Jepp. (I just cringe when it is time to update the subscription because "NO ONE" at that outfit is on the same page with anyone else.) Ok, said my piece, hopefully we can add them as an alternative. ------------- Sauce |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 8:37am
| +1 for SA. I really don't see a problem with having a choice. |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 9:04am
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From what I read up-thread, SA does not, or cannot supply navdata, just charts only. And outside the US, there are limits on the charts available. If that is all true, then this is largely a non-sequitur. * Orest |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 10:00am
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I communicated with SA. As Orest indicated, they do not do certified nav data, so SA as an option to horrible Jepp pricing and inconsistent customer service is not a viable option. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 10:45am
| There is no such thing as "certified" nav data. A vendor creates a database from the FAA source data and shows compliance to DO-200A. DO-200 demonstrates the process is repeatable. The OEM (avidyne in this case) provides an LOA to authorize its use in their product. |
Posted By: Bob H
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 11:22am
Jepp pricing is horrible based on comparison with SA that doesn’t have a product in this market space. The entire discussion on pricing is comparing apples and oranges. I have to think that liability costs of providing data to certified boxes is not trivial. Jepp also does provide some value added by error checking and validating changes before publishing, especially on approach charts. I actually was prepared not to subscribe to Jepp charts on the IFD540, because I need a better platform to read and review charts, which a tablet provides. Instead, I would have used an app such as Foreflight to get my Jepp charts. However, the IFD100 is a game changer. I can get the Jepps on both the IFD540 and a tablet. So, I went with that rather than Foreflight. If I was a NACO chart user, I would have gone with a free app with geo-referenced charts that connects to the IFD540. That would have been a fine alternative, and all pricing is horrible when compared to that option. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: MarkZ
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 12:27pm
| I’ll never give the big “J” a penny more than necessary. NACO charts on ForeFlight will guide my way very acceptably. However, I’m stuck for the NavData subscriptions. |
Posted By: paulr
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 2:52pm
| The IFD100 is a fine tool for use in the plane. Foreflight complements it very nicely when I'm not in the plane, however. Its flight planning and SA tools are extremely useful to me. Sure, maybe 80% of what they do is available in free equivalent services, but I am willing to pay for the integration, utility, and convenience of having all my aircraft, flight, route, nav, and weather data and services (including access to flight plan and TFR data) in a single app that is easily accessed without need for a PC. |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 5:24pm
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"Jepp also does provide some value added by error checking and validating changes before publishing, especially on approach charts." This just isn't true. The users find the mistakes and feed them back to Jepp. If there is a fix, it usually takes four or five cycles to get implemented. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 5:45pm
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We have a 172. Jepp wants about $1000 a year for the bundle with charts. And after I pay that we'll still have a 172. I'm an example of a price-sensitive consumer. Last time I looked it appeared it would be less expensive to buy a bundle for a Garmin or BK GPS. That's not a good message. |
Posted By: Bob H
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 3:12pm
We're both in the Northeast. I'm at: Revision Service.28-Days.Annual - 1 NavData.IFR.Coverage.Avidyne.IFD540.East/Central USA: $395 Revision Service.JV MFD.14-Days.Annual - 1 Electronic Chart Services.Northeastern US.JV MFD IFR.Coverage: $350. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: DavidBunin
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 4:22pm
Just because users find errors, doesn't meant that Jepp isn't doing data verification. It just means that the FAA data has (had) more errors than they found. For what it's worth, the few times in my career that I have identified errors and brought them to Jepp, the corrections have appeared in three cycles or less. I'll still complain about the pricing (also a 172 pilot here) but I must give them credit for the services that they do provide. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 8:02am
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I could save a couple hundred by reducing the coverage area. I've considered doing that. With that package do you also get the ability to put the data and charts on a iPad running IFD100 or ForeFlight? |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 9:10am
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YES, you get up to four portable locations (including FF), with my plan. One of the coolest things to this package, I'm a Jepp guy from way back, so like to see them everywhere. * Orest |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:00am
| David, The point I was trying to make is that there is nothing magical about Jepp. SA can provide the data just as easy as Jepp can. And with my conversations with SA, they want to if given a chance. I think having a choice and creating completion is a good thing. It would help EVERYONE including the Jepp fans. Isn't that why we all went with Avidyne in the first place, so that the big mean G wasn't the only game in town? |
Posted By: Bob H
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 2:26pm
I figure if I'm going outside my region, I'll get a trip kit. I don't do that very often, but I'll do that when I head to Sun-N-Fun in April. Per Orest's response, I do indeed have it on multiple platforms including an iPAD Mini for the IFD100. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: bjsieve
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 2:51am
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As a new owner of a 540/440 stack I am shocked at the data costs quoted from Jeppesen. Certainly feels like there running a Monopoly. I’m sure Boeing recognized this when they acquired them, watching their prices rise year afrer year. I don’t think Avidyne fully understands what a sales killer it is to have such high subscription costs associated with for their boxes. I’m sure they would sell more units if they could work out a solution with SA to lower the data costs. I am fine with Forefloight for charts, approach plates and terrain / obstacles. Just need NavData mostly. Maybe once a year terrain update. |
Posted By: MarkZ
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 8:54am
| NavData and terrain (once a year) is what I do. For the price of Jepp charts you can buy the full on ForeFlight package with NACO and the baddest iPad available. Throw in a Stratus and you have everything you will ever need. ForeFlight NavData even includes Jepp terrain. |
Posted By: bjsieve
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 12:21pm
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Good idea. I've been flying with ForeFlight for years and love it. Just got the 9.7" iPad Pro with iPencil and its mindbogglingly powerful. I do fly a decent bit of IFR and FWIW, nav-data is really just what is needed. All the other eye candy is just super expensive for things not essential. If you fly your MEA's you have nothing to worry about plus ForeFlight will warn you on terrain if you get near anything sticking up into your flight path. Likely just going to get the Stratus 2S so I have a completely separate but highly capable system and be done with it. Maybe the MBA's at Jeppesen will finally come to realize this and offer a reasonably priced subscription package to light GA aircraft that isn't 1/9th annually the cost of the IFD 540. Stupid. Not everyone fly's multi million dollar airplanes that have aviation budgets where a 4 digit subscription cost is a rounding number. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 10:03pm
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What exactly are the rules for flying without current data? My wife is the instrument pilot in the family and she wants it all to be up to date but I don't know the details of what we would give up if we didn't have it. |
Posted By: Bob H
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 11:57pm
BTW, if you are purchasing terrain data once per year, you are wasting money. Terrain data hasn’t been updated since Aug. 2015. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: MarkZ
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 9:45am
| $68.00 once a year to silence the yellow tag on the splash page for one cycle. Thanks for the terrain info. I agree one must keep current NavData to have a legal IFR box. Charts however are much easier to work with on the iPad stuck to the yoke. I thought I was in heaven when the chief pilot consented to “Q service” many years ago. |
Posted By: Bob H
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 10:09am
Agreed. Charts on the box is not all that useful. A Tablet App for NACO or Jepps is necessary to do a good approach briefing. For someone who doesn't want or pay for Jepps, nothing important is lost by using a Tablet App only. Since I'm a Jepp guy, the App of my choice was the IFD100, which gives me the charts in both places, which was a nice perk I was willing to pay for.
LOL! We've come a LONG way baby! ------------- Bob |
Posted By: LANCE
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 11:27am
| Obstacles need to be updated since they change frequently. Terrain pretty much stays the same. |
Posted By: m016576
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 11:03am
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<p ="msonospacing"=""> <p ="msonospacing"=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 107%; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
That is simply not true for VFR. "current" NavData is *not* required for VFR flightht. All that is required, in order to use your panel mount GPS for Vfr flight is that you verify that the GPS points are current and accurate. you can use an old cycle's data, so long as the points have not changed, and you've verified them. |
Posted By: Bob H
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 7:32pm
Yes of course. However, the IFD540/440 units are IFR certified WAAS GPSs., the context of the conversation is IFR, and my post context is clear with references to “criteria for IFR flight”. If I want a VFR GPS, my phone will work just fine. I don’t need to spend $20K or more and then dumb it down. I could also just turn the box off and look out the window. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: m016576
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 8:00pm
True. In the AIM there is a mention of the need to update a database for IFR operations, but I can't seem to find anything about GPS databases in the FAR's. As you know, the AIM is not a regulatory document, just a collection of "best practices". I remember reading a while back that so long as you verify that the points used for navigation are accurate, that it is legal to use a panel mount GPS for area navigation, just not for precision approaches. That may have only been for the 430W/530W. The AFM supp. for the IFD may state a more stringent requirement (I don't know as I keep my databases updated, so it hasn't been a factor to me). I'd be interested to know what FAR covers GPS databases for part 91 ops, and exactly what the wording is from a legality standpoint, if for nothing else than just my own knowledge. Do you happen to know the regulation that covers this? Thanks
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Posted By: PA20Pacer
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 9:04am
The Limitations section of the FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual Supplement (AFMS) for your GPS installation will include language that governs requirements for database currency. The language in the current AFMS for the IFD series navigators is as follows: "5. GPS/SBAS based IFR enroute, oceanic, and terminal
navigation is prohibited unless current Navigation and
Procedure databases are installed." Regards, Bob ------------- Bob Siegfried, II Brookeridge Airpark (LL22) Downers Grove, IL |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 1:42pm
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For those of you who want the details: here is the FAA order that would need to be followed for a provider to supply nav data...... http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/ee7b67ddc2d5244886257faf005c3cd8/$FILE/FAA%20Order%208110.55B.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/ee7b67ddc2d5244886257faf005c3cd8/$FILE/FAA%20Order%208110.55B.pdf There is absolutely nothing in the order that says Jepp is the only provider of certified nav databases in the world. Its just jepp and Avidyne went through the process together. |
Posted By: comancheguy
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 8:31pm
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Just got my Jepp renewal in the mail... $1584.95 for two IFD-540s. This, BTW infuriatingly is NOT enough to have plates on the IFD1000. For that, they wanted another few hundred (more than foreflight for the year, btw). I hate monopolies... Ken
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Posted By: teeth6
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 9:42pm
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Jepp has a newer plan that allows plates on 2 devices that is less costly than their typical 4 device plan. Mine was definitely less than 1584 |
Posted By: Bob H
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 11:08pm
We offer a bundle called the Suite Plus package. This provides charts for the IFD and 4 computers (Windows PC’s or I-Pads), navdata, obstacles and Terrain. That bundle is $1176.00/year. ala-carte package: Charts, northeast coverage (IFD540 and the four computers) $350/year. Navdata, east central (TX, OK, KS, NE, N/SD EAST) $395. The ala-cart would be a total of $745/year. I chose the ala-carte package. Charts on 4 computers and no extra charge for the IFD100. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: compasst
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 7:01am
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I have the following bundle on my IFD 540 and on my iPad in IFD100, Foreflight, and JeppFD. Yes, I don't like spending over $1000 to support my fun-and-family use of my Cardinal, but having a second supplier of charts for use on my commercial activity is welcome. And my wife wants me to have the Cardinal fully equipped - it just isn't worth experiencing a sudden iPad stoppage because it ran out of power (some panel USB and socket USB power adapters won't charge an iPad in use, let alone keep it running - but Anker socket USB adapters do the job on 12 and 24 vdc sockets). Worse, the iPad gets hot when running Foreflight. Add some sunlight or a warm cabin in winter and - oops, shutdown from being too hot just as I'm turning to intercept the final approach course. The Avidyne is way more reliable although it has also suddenly shut down for loss of GPS signal, although not since the update to 10.2. Foreflight doesn't care if you use Jepp charts, but they won't let you drop the gov't chart cost. With Jepp, I have all my data with one download. I don't have to pick and choose states (hope I didn't miss one) as with FlyQ or Foreflight. Telling Jepp that you want the Avidyne bundle helps with cost, or so I've been told. As you can see from the image below (unsuccessful at resizing), Jepp doesn't do a very good job of telling you what each costs. And I get different answers each time I call them.  |