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"requires BARO input" and ASPEN

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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Jun 2014 at 6:14pm
There is good news and bad news, for folks out there with ASPEN installs, planning to put in an IFD540, and I expect that might be a fair number of people ...

In order to see VSR (vertical speed req'd) to the next altitude constraint and to allow for auto sequencing of vertical constraint segments (typically part of SIDs), you MUST supply full airdata on the ARINC 429 communication bus to the IFD540.

The bad news for ASPEN folks, is that the default ACU that ships with every ASPEN PRO does NOT pass this data on the 429 bus, only selected course and track, from an email from my shop ...


The data is on the bus that exits the ASPEN, but the FAA decided that only certain elements could be passed on to other units without further testing. Perhaps to get the unit certificated in a timely fashion, ASPEN  included only the selected course and track to be output from the ACU on 429. 

The semi-good news is that they later released an optional ACU2, which supplies the rest of the "missing" data on the ARINC 429 bus, and provides a number other functions. The ACU2 is about $2000, but at least it is plug compatible and about the same size. You will likely have to run an extra pair of cables to carry the data, which depending on where it is, may be a bit of a job.

Some of the airdata (not baro corrected altitude) is available on the RS232 bus. That is how I feed the airdata to the 430W currently.

So, a bit of a head's up. An ASPEN/IFD540 setup will work just fine, but to get every last bell & whistle working, including some of the unique vertical stuff that the IFD540 does (that no one else provides), if you have a typical ASPEN install with the default ACU supplying airdata you will have to spend a bit of extra money. I am having some other work done on my plane in a couple of weeks (TAS605A), so will be able to get this done well ahead of time. I'm glad I found out now, it is in the latest pilot docs, but actually has been in the install docs for a while.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 10 Jun 2014 at 2:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2014 at 7:02pm
My aspen was installed 1,5 years ago together with the ACU2?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2014 at 7:19pm
I'm not sure if you're asking, or saying.

The ASPEN (still) ships with the original ACU. The ACU2 is a $2k upgrade. If you got that option installed at the time, then you are all set.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 1:35am
I tought it was now standard but apparently not.

I got the acu2 as you need it to also be able to display an adf needle which we unfortunately still need here in europe.

Edited by wsh - 06 Jun 2014 at 1:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 3:15am
Thanks for that important information Orest. Steve, is there anything else important regarding compatibility that we need to know about to better prepare us for release, so we don't have any surprises?

Victor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 7:07am
Just a point of clarification - the Top of Descent (TOD) function and MAP identifier does not require the BARO input. I use the function all the time on my steam gauge setup with no Air Data Computer. The VSR data block requires it though.

What do you mean by "auto sequencing of vertical constraint segments?"

Edited by Gring - 06 Jun 2014 at 7:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 7:13am
Orest, so question - Do you have wind and OAT information on your 430W today?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 9:02am
Yes, Geoffrey (Gring) beat me to it.
 
Top of Descent (TOD) calculations are done with GPS MSL altitude when baro altitude is not available so that will work for everybody, all of the time.
 
Manually entered (or auto entered by FMS for published procedueres) vertical constraints are not used in the sequencing criteria of flight plan legs and are only used for calculating TOD and Vertical Speed Required (VSR) indications.   Vertical constraints from the flight plan also show up on the moving map no matter what.
 
Altitude terminated legs, on the other hand, do look at the atltitude to sequence which only uses baro altitude.  When no baro alt is available in those cases, a CAS message is displayed which prompts the pilot to manually sequence the leg.
 
I had been lulled into bliss on the datablock items needing baro input since I've had an Aspen PFD in the plane I've been flying the entire time. It was Geoffrey who smartly pointed out that for the non-Aspen configurations (really the non-baro providing configurations), that those three datablock items weren't showing up, hence the pilot guide update.  I will check the aircraft log book later today to see if I have a ACU or ACU2, I don't remember at this time.
 
Victor, I can't think of any other gotchas.  To recap the list:
 
1.  Baro input needed for three datablock items.
2.  Terrain alerting audio needs wire from IFD to audio panel (all previous 530 TAWS versions had that).
3.  AXP340 folks will want a wire from the IFD to the transponder to auto toggle it on/off ground as required.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Gring Gring wrote:

Orest, so question - Do you have wind and OAT information on your 430W today?

Yes, I do. They are coming in on the RS232 bus.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Seubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 9:42am
Steve,
On your recap list you didn't include the wire from the IFD 540 to the AXP340 with position information for the ADS-B.  Am I understanding correctly that correct that we also need that wire?

Jack

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 9:44am
Steve,

Thanks for the detailed clarifications, as always.

As your aircraft is experimental, it could have been set up to feed the ARINC 429 ASPEN output directly to the 540, bypassing the ACU. There are a lot of data elements on the 429 bus output, all but two are removed by the ACU. But doing so is not a certified setup, so that is not open to most. From my understanding, if you don't have that experimental direct feed setup, then you must have the ACU2, or you're a magician. ;-)

*Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 06 Jun 2014 at 9:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 9:55am
Originally posted by wsh wsh wrote:

I tought it was now standard but apparently not.

I got the acu2 as you need it to also be able to display an adf needle which we unfortunately still need here in europe.

Yes, the ADF is the general reason to get the ACU2, so you can see the ADF needle on the ASPEN. 

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 06 Jun 2014 at 10:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 10:59pm
Bummer - and thanks for the warning.  I had just decided last week to have the shop install an Aspen along with the IFD540, since I needed a CDI anyway (the radio being replaced is not a Garmin, but an old Cessna-compatible NARCO, and the indicator is unique to Cessna.)  The extra $2K (or $2.3K, depending on where you look) probably kills that idea.

But am I misunderstanding:  the Garmin accepts the data on RS232 and the IFD doesn't?  I thought this was plug-in-replacement excepting only other Garmin products where proprietary protocols were used.

Steve, can you provide some enlightenment?

Thx,
Jon


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2014 at 11:56pm
Steve can give the definitive answer, but in my setup I don't believe that baro-corrected altitude is available on the RS232 line (from the ASPEN). That is not an issue currently, as the 5/430W does not actually make use of that data.

However, the IFD540 does need it for several datablock items, and so the issue. In a way, it is really an ASPEN shortcoming.

You know Jon, in your situation, I think I would still go ahead and get the ASPEN (with std ACU) installed. That will surely improve your cockpit in any case, getting an EHSI is an enormous step up. Next year you can consider upgrading to the ACU2, the shop will likely give you something for the installed ACU, and the swap out is pretty straightforward. I also heard a report that a future firmware update on the original ACU may address this shortcoming.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 07 Jun 2014 at 12:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2014 at 7:55am
Well it's a "perfect storm" of condition right now. My Aspen just broke yesterday when I went to test this (totally unrelated failure) and we're hot and heavy in test for credit do this is a terrible distraction and not something I want to steal the test benches right now. But, I don't have any ACU in my airplane so I'm not completely sure what's going on. It may take until late in the week before I have a better grasp on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2014 at 8:41am
Steve,

If you have no ACU in your plane, then that explains it, you don't need to look further.

You no doubt have the ASPEN ARINC 429 bus tied directly to the 540, and then the 540 receives all of the data that the ASPEN outputs. You can only do that in an experimental plane, a certificated setup requires one of the ASPEN ACUs, and the ACUs limit the fields passed, the ACU (original) much more than the ACU2, which causes the issue noted in this thread.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 07 Jun 2014 at 8:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2014 at 8:46am
No, I wish it were that simple. We take serial data from Aspen to drive the autopilot and use some of that data in IFD540. This will take a few days to straighten out.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2014 at 11:10am
Orest,
Thanks for the clarification and recommendation.
Jon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Seubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 7:09pm
Orest,

I just got a reply from Aspen about the ARINC 429 output.  Dave Wilcox was the person I have been exchanging E-mails, and here is his reply:

John, though the IM does state that only label 100 and 320 are passed thru the standard ACU, labels (100/320/203/204/210) can be picked off of the display output at pins 26 & 27.

So, it may be that we do not have to purchase the ACU2.

Jack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 8:43pm
Yes, no question that you can pull the data off the unit itself, after all that is where the ACU2 gets the data. The difference is that the ACU2 passes more of the data, the ACU passes only a subset.

What I have been told is that pulling the data directly, and sending the data to other certificated instruments is outside of the product STC. It will probably work fine, but it doesn't have paperwork, and your shop will likely not be willing to do it, unless your aircraft is experimental.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 09 Jun 2014 at 8:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phkmn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 1:34pm
I'm rather disappointed to hear this.

I thought Aspen and Avidyne were "cooperating".
PH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 1:38pm
+1

I do recall the promise of new and great things around this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 1:48pm
Well, it is not a reason to not go ahead. The IFD540 and ASPEN will work together very well. It is just that the typical install of ASPEN 1000 PROs does not provide a couple of data items on the bus to the IFD540, and that affects only two different functions:

1)  The VSR calculations, keyed to multiple programmed altitude constraints
2)  Auto-sequencing of vertical constraints on altitude bound legs of SIDS (you will get a CAS message instead)

Admittedly #1 is kind of cool and powerful, but #2 in actual usage is a bit arcane, and the CAS alert "manual push" to sequence is not that a biggie.

TOD calculations are not affected.

If you are moving from a GNS setup, the Garmins do not provide either #1 or #2, at all, nor do they show a TOD point, no matter what you do.

The fix for an ASPEN/IFD540 setup -- well ASPEN may update the ACU function in a firmware update, or you can upgrade to the ACU2, both would  provide the skipped fields to the IFD540.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 10 Jun 2014 at 2:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 2:01pm
True, but having put in Aspen(s) in anticipation of a servo solution for a DFC90 install, would have expected tighter integration..

Maybe V2, or 3...
David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2014 at 1:29pm
Orest, actually, the G430/530W do have a VSR calculation for a single waypoint and is done without the BARO input.  I used it all the time in my last airplane.  I now use the TOD on the 540 which accomplishes something similar.  But to be honest, I've been flying a lot of non gps equipped aircraft lately and end up just doing the math in my head and it works out just fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2014 at 4:39pm
Geoffrey,

Yes indeed the GNS units have a single manual waypoint VSR calculation page, and I do use it all the time. It is indispensable on long descents as the wind backs and you hit one or two shear layers. That said, you always have to be mindful of a 3000ft/10nm ballpark figure.

However, the Garmins do not have ...

Quote 1)  The VSR calculations, keyed to multiple programmed altitude constraints

... and even to the minimums (automatically) on published approaches.

Avidyne's feature is a big cut above. Add to that, the Boeing Banana, and then it is not even in the same ballpark.

* Orest




Edited by oskrypuch - 11 Jun 2014 at 4:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glassanza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2014 at 2:45pm
Maybe you (Orest) should start calling it the "Avidyne Plantain" in order to avoid any copyright issues with Boeing in the event Steve were to add the feature down the road...  
GDC25
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I'll call anything they want, as long as I get to see it on the screen!!

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhbehrens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 4:12am
My aircraft has an Aspen PFD Pro and a Garmin 530W and I actually upgraded from ACU to ACU2 when the latter came out to get rid of my separate ADF indicator. After I did the 530W started showing a wind arrow because it started receiving TAS (in addition to pressure altitude and baro-corrected altitude) from the ACU2 which it didnt get before from the regular ACU. 

I didn't have to add any wires because it is sent across the 429 TX connection (P3 pins 4/5) that is always installed in Aspen ACU/530W combinations.

Some people may not have an ACU at all. Its is used only for interfacing the Aspen with analogue equipment such as most autopilots or radios such as the KX-155. In those installations TAS, baro-corrected altitude etc is passed on by the EFD itself to the GPS on a mandatory wire. Essentially the EFD provides them but ACU doesn't pass them through on 429 whereas ACU2 does.

So; if you have an Aspen with either no ACU or ACU2 you should be fine, if you have ACU you'll need to upgrade to ACU2 to get features requiring baro-corrected altitude, pressure altitude or TAS. It's the same for a 530W but its just that there are less such features on a 530W.


Edited by jhbehrens - 14 Jun 2014 at 4:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 9:35pm
I don't really understand exactly how to accomplish this BARO input but am mainly interested to know if the 540 will continue to give the same VSR to a single waypoint that the GMS 430 does now?  It would be a great feature to have the VSR to each waypoint along a flightplan (depending on the cost to add the BARO), but I would like to know for sure if the 540 will supply the VSR to a single chosen waypoint and altitude without BARO as the 430s do?

Larry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 9:39pm
No, it won't for the initial release.  We'll add that in an upcoming release.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 7:01am
Sorry if I'm missing something big here.  I've always seen one of the major reasons for having vertical capabilities in the 540, one of the things that has been heavily advertised, is to know the VSR between waypoints in the flight plan.  This is not in the initial release?  I know the TOD is in there and that must be based on a VSR trigger.  I assume I'm missing an important point to this conversation because I don't understand the benefit of vertical capabilities if it won't be providing VSR capability.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 7:31am
When you do not have a BARO input (like my Bonanza), the vertical constraint on a waypoint still works very nicely.  In the flight plan you can set a constraint such as cross x at 4000ft, 1.2nm before.

 - The IFD will display the TOD marker on the flight path
 - The IFD will give an aural warning when approaching the TOD (provided TAWS audio has been wired)
 - The IFD will give you a CAS message at the same time as the aural warning instructing you to begin your descent.
 - It will not provide the VSR field information in this release.

So, it will provide the indication of when to descend based on the IFD setup which has a default of 500ft/min, but it will not provide continuous VSR information in the initial release.  Operationally, this has not been an issue for me.


Edited by Gring - 23 Jul 2014 at 8:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 8:34am
And note gring's qualification, if you do have a baro input, the VSR will show, as well, with this initial release. If you are not sure if you have a baro input, list your nav equipment and we'll hazard a guess.

Speaking of which, it is mid-week already....

* Orest

Edited by oskrypuch - 23 Jul 2014 at 8:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 8:54am
My Ye Olde KLN-94 GPS receives uncorrected baro altitude from my encoder (mode C) to provide a nice "Advisory VNAV" function.   One selects a waypoint from the flight plan, altitude at the waypoint (+/- user selected distance in nm), expected ground speed in the descent, and vertical feet per minute.



This results in a datablock showing time to descent, then advisory altitudes in increments of 100 feet, which is quite handy if you have to delay or expedite a descent for any reason (cloud clearance, terrain, traffic, etc.)

I have an Aspen but am not inclined to spend the money on the new ACU.   It seems that the Avidyne 540 has an input for uncorrected altitude.  It would be nice if it could provide at least the same functionality as my current, quite old GPS.  EDIT: it's not apparent to me whether an uncorrected altitude input will provide the VSR


Edited by Royski - 23 Jul 2014 at 9:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2014 at 10:36am
The problem with the TOD only feature is if you have a default of 500 ft/min set, it may require a larger descent rate than that to meet a crossing restriction and you would have not way to know what VSR would be needed to meet that restriction.  True, if 500 ft/min is enough to meet the restriction, the TOD will tell you when to start to descent but often that is not the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SB Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2014 at 1:12pm

If memory serves a guy with an Aspen and a GNS 480 had the same problem. The shop split the ARINC 429 output into 2 outputs, one to the ACU and one to the 480. Both were happy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhbehrens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2014 at 11:48am
Thought I'd lift this thread to hear whether people with Aspens and IFD540s are getting the air data to their IFD?

My install has an ACU2. The Aspen IM says to configure the Aspen-connected 530W's 429 input to 'high speed' and 'EFIS/Airdata'. The IFD install manual says to configure the IFD's 429 input to 'low' and 'Honeywell EFIS' when connected to an Aspen but that is what Aspen say you should use for a 'regular' ACU.

I used the ACU2 settings recommended by Aspen for the 530W also in the IFD540 and I am not yet sure whether it works. Has anyone else done this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhbehrens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2014 at 12:39pm
Can now confirm Airdata from Aspen AUC2 is working with these settings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2014 at 9:39pm
How can you verify that?
David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jhbehrens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2014 at 5:22am
- There is a page in the maintenance mode that shows air data labels received. On the ground mine saw heading, p alt and baro alt.
- I can select wind vectors as a data block
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