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SAIB HQ-14-25

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AzAv8r View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 9:01pm
I (and I'm sure most other US pilots) today received SAIB HQ-14-25 from the FAA, which basically says "the FAA has changed their definition of descent angle in ARINC 424 Nav databases, and some avionics don't handle this well."

We are advised to, among other things, contact our navigation equipment manufacturer to determine how the equipment handles the change.

So: how does the IFD 540 handle this coding?  And out of curiosity, did Avidyne get a sneak preview of this change during the certification process?

Thx,
Jon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FORANE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 8:49am
For those not familiar,

Here it is for everyones review:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...light=hq-14-25

I know from personal experience with a Garmin GTN650 that at least one airport (and likely all) on the list below has GPS approaches missing in the database of my GTN650 due to the issue addressed by this SAIB.

It is my understanding that (for Garmin at least) this effects only WAAS GPS units - i.e. 430W but not 430.

Effected airports / dropped approaches (possibly more now...):

35A, RNAV 05
35A, RNAV 23
3MY, RNAV 18
42A, RNAV 03
4D0, RNAV 09
4J5, RNAV 10
4J5, RNAV 28
7G8, RNAV 11
7G8, RNAV 29
8A3, RNAV 03
9G3, RNAV 07
9G3, RNAV 25
D95, RNAV 18
D95, RNAV 36
I68, RNAV 19
K15, RNAV 14
K15, RNAV 32 KACQ, RNAV 33
KAHH, RNAV 18
KBUU, RNAV 11
KBUU, RNAV 29
KCDI, RNAV 22
KCIR, RNAV 14
KDLL, RNAV 19
KGTG, RNAV 30
KHEZ, RNAV 18
KHEZ, RNAV 31
KHEZ, RNAV 36
KHTL, RNAV 09
KHTL, RNAV 27
KIOB, RNAV 03
KJVW, RNAV 30
KMMK, RNAV 36
KMMS, RNAV 20
KMNM, RNAV 32
KMXA, RNAV 18
KOJA, RNAV 35
KOMN, RNAV 26
KOQW, RNAV 15
KTEW, RNAV 10
KTEW, RNAV 28
KWAL, RNAV 10
MO3, RNAV 19
PACX, RNAV 01
PAHO, RNAV 04-Y
W96, RNAV 11
W96, RNAV 29
Lancair 235/320
RV-9A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 5:31pm
Check this chain: http://www.avidynelive.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=347&title=database-and-update-prices , starting with this quote on Feb 08, 2014:
Originally posted by phkmn phkmn wrote:

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this question but can't see one more appropriate.

Garmin has recently removed 50 or so RNAV approaches from the chart database because "the glideslope is undefined" or some such language.

Is this also an issue with the IFD540?

The subsequent posts should answer your questions about this.


Vince
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 5:58pm
I had to check on a few items tonight at my hangar.  I spot checked 6 of the approaches on the list and they are all in the IFD540 with the current nav data release.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 8:32pm
steve, have you guys tested this today?  can you handle a zero in the database in that field?  if not, will you make a change to the OFP or will strip the approach out of the database?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 8:39pm
Gring, just wondering if you try to load the approach?  Did the IFD reset?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 10:24pm
I will attempt to stay as professional and polite as possible but this is bull!$%&.

We were not aware of the specific SAIB prior to it being issued but we were generally of this issue  as documented in another related thread.

You the end user are supposed to read AC 20-138 and draw some accurate conclusion from that?  C'mon!

Late last year, a question came up on some forum regarding Garmin having to remove approaches from their database because they couldn't handle the zero FPA.    The Avidyne system deals with the zero FPA, but it does mean that there is no +V available (we are adding that capability in an upcoming release).

The original SAIB only discussed procedures being excluded from aeronautical databases.  The new SAIB discusses the actual problem.  We think that someone somehow determined that advisory vertical guidance was a bad idea for some set of approaches.  Then the FAA contractor encoding the approaches decided that the way to fix it was to change the FPA to zero in the nav database for those approaches.  When they did that, I believe the Garmin units could not handle the zero FPA and so that's when Garmin was forced to simply exclude those approaches.  The critical difference between Garmin and us is that our system can handle zero FPA.  Ours was designed from the beginning to consider a zero FPA the same as no-FPA-specified, thus inhibiting +V as was the intent.

Okay, that may have sounded like a bunch of gibberish but the IFD540 is not adversely affected by the FAA identified scenario.  The approaches are all available and correct in the IFD540.   As a reminder, the initial release of the IFD540 does not support +V approaches but that will be added in the next few months.

 


Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 7:14am
Tony, I don't understand your question. On the six I spot checked, I created a flight plan from my airport direct to the listed airport. I then pressed the PROC key and selected the approach listed above. I then reviewed the FMS against the approach plate on my iPAD. It matched exactly.  Obviously I didn't fly the approaches, so I do not know if the advisory glide slope would appear, but from Steve's post above, probably not.

Edited by Gring - 28 Aug 2014 at 7:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 7:53pm

Steve, that's an awesome response.  Kudos to the requirements guys!!

Gring,   I just wanted to know if the approach made it crash. 

I'm thinking I made the right decision to stick with my prebuy purchase for 3+ years now



Edited by tony - 28 Aug 2014 at 8:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 7:55pm
Yes, Gring is the man.     He is very savvy and calls it as he sees it.  

He is an excellent resource for us and for any other forum folks who want to pepper him with questions.
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 8:12pm
Tony, you absolutely made the right decision to stick with your prebuy and you will not regret your decision.  The more I use it, the more I like it.  The best part is that Avidyne still has a long roadmap of future function to add to the unit.  I'm sure some upgrades will be free and others will cost, but who cares?  The platform is awesome!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 8:40pm
I was looking forward to trying this on our KLN-89B to see if it generated a floating point divide by zero fault.  But it doesn't have +V.  And I don't think it has floating point hardware.  Oh well.  In a few short months it will be expunged from the aircraft, to be sold, or given away, or brought to the local rod and gun club...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 8:42pm
Paul,

If you can't sell it, I think I'd be happy to buy it for a few $ just for the opportunity to blast it to smithereens into a million pieces.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 8:44pm
That's what would happen at the rod and gun club.  Unless you have a more dramatic idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

That's what would happen at the rod and gun club.  Unless you have a more dramatic idea.


How about drone target practice...that would be lots of fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bellanca1730a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2014 at 9:12am
Uhh ... yeah ... Steve, can you hear the magic words echoing in memory? ... "AIRGUN 1, CLEARED HOT"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 8:43am

Good Morning All,


Once again I must apologize for getting a bit off subject, but I do not understand the eagerness to eliminate our older GPS units.


My trusty Trimble 2000 Approach Plus unit has been soldiering along faithfully for nearly twenty years. Figure on retaining it as long as I can get a current database.


There are still many airports where an ILS or even a VOR has lower minima than the WAAS or non WAAS GPS approaches available. (There are  even a few places where an ADF approach is the only thing available.) Many of the VHF Nav approaches require an ADF or DME to use at all or provide a lower minima when those devices are available. My Trusty Trimble can be used to execute any of those VHF approaches that have a DME or ADF restriction. It can even be used to substitute for a marker beacon if the marker beacon has been designated as a published intersection.


While the "Use of GPS in lieu of ADF or DME function" is not as useful as it was when first authorized, there still is a need and foul ups such as the "Zero" problem being discussed add emphasis to such a need.


Happy Skies,

Old Bob



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 11:06am
Bob,

In defense of our KLN-89B, it is an IFR rated GPS.  It allows filing /G.  And it is coupled to the autopilot.

I think iit was introduced around 1994, twenty years ago.  At the time Windows 3.11 was the current Microsoft operating system.  The Pentium processor had just come out.  The entire GPS database fit on a floppy.

The user interface is awful.  The speculation is that none of the developers were actually pilots.  The display is orange plasma with few pixels - it has a moving map but that feature is almost unusable.  There is no PROC button.  Strangely enough it has an E6B calculator function.

There is no integration with the COM/NAV radios or functions.  VOR and ILS are handled by a KX-155A.  An external annunciator switches the NAV 1 indicator to the GPS.

Database updates are done using a serial connection.  I have to bring a notebook computer and USB to serial adapter to the plane every 28 days.  I have an old Windows XP notebook which I keep running just for this purpose.

Our KLN-89B developed a serious problem shortly after we got the plane.  The problem was in the power supply board which develops the high voltage needed for the display.  Fortunately the shop we brought it to had a dead KLN-89B with a good power supply board and they charged us $75 for the board and an hour of labor to fix it.  It has had no problems since.

Here are some of the features of the IFD 540 that the KLN-89B doesn't have:
  • WAAS
  • A flight management system.
  • Color moving map.  The map is very usable.  There's a "magenta line".
  • Integrated NAV/COM.  The GPS knows the frequencies and provides a convenient way to get to them.
  • Digital NAV receiver.  There is a VOR approach for the airport where our plane is based.  The VOR is about 35 miles away.  A 1/2 degree error is a half-mile miss.  Steve has flown this approach with the IFD 540 and it is easy with the digital receiver.
  • Victor airways.
  • VOR identification.  This doesn't matter much to us because most of the pilots in our plane are ham radio operators an know Morse code.
  • Ability to drive a GPSS roll steering converter.  The KLN-89B isn't fast enough to do this.

I'm sure Steve could add a bunch to that list.  I probably could too if I spend a few more minutes thinking about it.

The KLN-89B was a marvel at the time it was introduced.  But that time has passed.  I don't think I could even remember how to deal with Windows 3.11 any more.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 2:23pm
This morning I watched my wife spend minutes dialing past waypoints that are thousands of miles away to find a VOR twenty miles from the airport on the KLN-89B and then spend seconds entering the same flight plan into Foreflight on an iPad.

So please add to the above list:
  • Intelligent waypoint selection.

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