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Self exchange guide?

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PA23 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 4:36pm
What happened to the self exchange guide on Avidyne's web site?

It appears as if Avidyne no longer supports that option?  I did the self install almost 18 months ago and helped a friend do his about 6 months ago.

Also missing is the PDF copy of the flight manual supplement


Edited by PA23 - 13 Oct 2020 at 5:15pm
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PA23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2020 at 1:00pm
Anybody? Avidyne Support??

Has Avidyne decided that a self install is no longer a valid option?  I did mine about 18 months ago, followed the very easy instructions swapped it out and I've been good ever since.  My IA did autograph my logbook entry under my signature just so there would be no questions in the future.

-PA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rpostmo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2020 at 2:40pm
Yes, I found the absence of the install guide a problem.
I just did the 430W for IFD440 exchange.  Since the 430W was 
not working correctly, I pulled it for exchange.  Prior to doing that 
I took a picture of the Basic 232 and the Basic 439 configuration pages.
I did that based on what I'd previously read.   When the new IFD440 
arrived, I downloaded the installation manual, and found out in Appendix F
there are multiple configuration  settings that are to be copied from the 
430W and set into the new IFD440.  Well, my 430w was long gone so I 
don't have them.   Needless to say, my CDI doesn't work, my DME doesn't work,
and to top it off, my com radio is scratchy and unreadable....likely an antenna problem.
The logbook notation idea is hokey at best.  I truly believe there should be a 337.
I have an appt. at my avionics shop to put things right....their first opening is June.
I'm not at all unhappy with the radio, or the purchase,  and I wouldn't hesitate to
do it again...but I would have my avionics shop do the install.
Bob
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PA23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2020 at 5:59pm
I spent a little bit of time searching my computer as I knew I had a copy of it and I found the copy I downloaded way back when.

I seem to recall Avidyne had a letter from the FAA that also showed that if fell under the self install, do I remember correctly and if so does anybody have that letter?  I would like to simply add it to my records.

-PA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote P35Pilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2020 at 1:32am
I have the install manual and the exchange manual in pdf if you need it. The exchange manual has the suggested maintenance log entry for an owner exchange.  Let me know if you want them.

Yoram Limor
Ylimor@gmail.com
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PA23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2020 at 11:26am
Thanks I found my copy.

What I thought Avidyne had was a letter from the FAA that also approved the owner install, if I'm not mistaken and that letter existed there to, that is what I'm looking for.

-PA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ibraham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2020 at 4:28pm
See Appendix A for the self install manual


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2020 at 1:13pm
Since ADS-B is now mandated, installation involves an interface with ADS-B.  That makes installation a "major" alteration and, therefore, it doesn't meet the criteria for "preventative maintenance" like it used to.  So, self-install is no longer an option.
Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2020 at 1:17pm
Interesting thought however my ADS-B out solution is independent of the Avidyne as my transponder (NGT-9000) has its own GPS source and at the time I swapped out the GNS430W the transponder was only sending traffic over ARINC (?). that has later been changed to support all ADS-B in by my IA.

The reason I was looking for the self exchange guide is in the event I'm ever questioned on why/how I replaced the radio on my own in the future I have something to fall back on and justify my position.

Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rangemaster_Tango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2020 at 3:51pm
An unfortunate response to restricting documentation availability.  Information wants to be free...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2020 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by AviSteve AviSteve wrote:

Since ADS-B is now mandated, installation involves an interface with ADS-B.  That makes installation a "major" alteration and, therefore, it doesn't meet the criteria for "preventative maintenance" like it used to.  So, self-install is no longer an option.


Steve, 

As I said I wanted a copy of the self-exchange guide showing that I followed the instructions from Avidyne in the event that I'm ever questioned, and I found a copy.  The issue now is, am I really legal and I'm not sure what the answer will be or if I'll like the answers, but I'd rather get it straightened out now...

Most if not all pilots are aware of the list that the FAA puts out that spells out what an owner can do as preventative  maintenance (Coleal interpretation aside) along with some very specific items an owner can NOT do.  One of the maintenance items pointed out in the self install guide was item 31 which referred to self contained radios that are tray mounted etc but specifically excluding DME and Transponders can be replaced by the owner.  It was on this basis I swapped the radio out, put in a logbook entry and signed it per Avidyne's instructions.

If I understand you correctly I can no longer do the exchange myself is because of the GPS' integration to ADS-B, I'm assuming that is the current FAA interpretation now?  How about in a situation like mine where the transponder is not connected to the GPS for position data as the transponder has its own source (NGT9000)?

I also helped a friend do a self install on his airplane, he has a GTX335 transponder and it does pull GPS position data from the IFD, am I to understand he is not eligible to do the self install because of the connection to his transponder for positioning data?

Although I'm hoping that I'm good because the swap was done when the self-exchange was an option but if neither installation is considered valid because "the rules have changed" what would I need to make the installation pass muster?  Is it simply use the logbook entry that Avidyne recommended and have it signed by my IA?  Do I need to have him generate a 337?  For example I know that when my original GNS430 was installed in April of 2000 it was done under a 337 plus the shop had to generate an error report in order for the "VFR only" placard removal.  When the unit was upgraded to a 430W I think it was just a log book entry along with an updated AFMS entry.

If the IA needs to generate a 337 he'll probably charge me for 1 hr of shop time, if it is simply a signature in the logbook, he already signed under my name in the log book when the plane was in for annual so I'm good. 

-PA

“When the weight of the paper equals the weight of the plane, only then you can go flying” -Donald Douglas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2020 at 12:05pm
Nothing has really changed with the rules regarding whether something is preventative maintenance or a major alteration.  But our assumption now is that most installations will use the IFD as the ADS-B position source.  As a result, we discontinued the self exchange guide since there is effort involved to maintain it and keep it accurate.

Avidyne doesn't have any kind of special authorization regarding self install of the IFD.  The guide was just that - a guide to help you through the process. You said that you had an IA sign your logbook anyway, so that's even better.

Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2020 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by AviSteve AviSteve wrote:

Nothing has really changed with the rules regarding whether something is preventative maintenance or a major alteration.  But our assumption now is that most installations will use the IFD as the ADS-B position source.  As a result, we discontinued the self exchange guide since there is effort involved to maintain it and keep it accurate.

Avidyne doesn't have any kind of special authorization regarding self install of the IFD.  The guide was just that - a guide to help you through the process. You said that you had an IA sign your logbook anyway, so that's even better.



Thanks, yes I had my IA autograph number my signature at the last annual, however my friend who uses the GPS as a position source for his gtx335 did not, he'll probably ask his IA to autograph as well.

I thought, there was a letter of interpretation from the FAA that you had on the website as well regarding it, I guess I was thinking of something else.

Thanks!
PA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2020 at 5:56pm
Appendix A to Part 43 of the FARs has not changed.  Utilization of Part 43 Appendix A (c)(31) for pilot's authority to replace panel mounted avionics has not changed.  What has changed is that Avidyne has removed the "pertinent instructions" the regulation requires the pilot follow when swapping out the boxes.  Thus, although it remains generally legal for pilots to swap out boxes on principle, the lack of "pertinent instructions" means that pilots can no longer sign off that dead-simple step of swapping out a Garmin box for an IFD box.

It was never the case that pilots were permitted to re-wire their panels so as to create a new connection between an existing GPS and a newly-installed ADS-B Out box dependent upon a certified GPS box.  Not when Avidyne's instructions were posted, and not now since they've been taken down.

The only thing that has changed is Avidyne's willingness to provide the instructions.  Steve has provided us an explanation as to why Avidyne did so: "...we discontinued the self exchange guide since there is effort involved to maintain it and keep it accurate."  I don't think "assumptions" that pilots would do something illegal now that they would not have done a year or two ago makes much sense, but Avidyne is entitled to do what it did regardless.

These days there are many ADS-B Out devices with their own internal position capability, which makes the need to wire up an IFD less likely than before, when the only ADS-B Out box originally capable of internal position capability years ago was the Lynx NGT 9000.  Apart from owners of the Lynx, most early adopters of ADS-B Out had to wire up their IFDs to the ADS-B Out box to get it to work, and I'm not aware of instances where pilots wired up the IFD/ADS-B connection on their own.  But if they did, their sign-off (or lack of one) made the work illegal then, as now.  The difference is, back then, pilots could legally swap out their Garmins for IFDs using Avidyne's instructions.  No longer.



Edited by Catani - 19 Nov 2020 at 6:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2020 at 6:06pm
duplicate


Edited by PA23 - 19 Nov 2020 at 6:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2020 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by PA23 PA23 wrote:

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

It was never the case that pilots were permitted to re-wire their panels so as to create a new connection between an existing GPS and a newly-installed ADS-B Out box dependent upon a certified GPS box.  Not when Avidyne's instructions were posted, and not now since they've been taken down.


Even the exchange instructions said something along the lines that it was a "like for like swap" and that there can be no changes in the current functionality.  Avidyne went so far as to provide a checklist of items that the user had to validate before swapping a unit.  I think it was clear that any additional functionality would need to be done by a repair shop/A&P etc.

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

These days there are many ADS-B Out devices with their own internal position capability, which makes the need to wire up an IFD less likely that before, when the only ADS-B Out box originally capable of internal position capability years ago was the Lynx NGT 9000.  Apart from owners of the Lynx, most early adopters of ADS-B Out had to wire up their IFDs to the ADS-B Out box to get it to work, and I'm not aware of instances where pilots wired up the IFD/ADS-B connection on their own.  But if they did, their sign-off (or lack of one) made the work illegal then, as now.


Many GNS unit may have already been wired to provide a position source to a transponder so no additional wiring is necessary.  I can however envision a not so technical pilot swapping out a GNS400/500 series radio, not programming the serial ports right and no longer have ADS-B out functioning properly or thinking that by simply installing the new GPS they magically have ADS-B out.

I don't know if the decision was made because devices may need to be connected to ADS-B out units for position data, Avidyne was fielding too many support calls on the exchange, pressure from the FAA, or simply a marketing deal in that repair shops felt they were being cut out of the market.  Either way it no longer matters to me in that mine is swapped out, my friend swapped his out and everything is signed off as per Avidyne's previously available self-exchange guide, and should I ever be questioned I have a copy of the self-exchange guide to support my position.

-PA


Edited by PA23 - 19 Nov 2020 at 6:17pm
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