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77Mooney View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 77Mooney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nav, Chart Data
    Posted: 23 Nov 2016 at 3:03pm
I for one would love to see another option for Nav and Chart data other then Jeppeson.  Seattle Avionics comes to mind......... Any hope of that for the future?
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MarkZ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2016 at 8:51pm
Yeah, a lifetime database subscription for what one year of Jepp sticks you for! That's the deal we'd all love to have. Probably aren't gonna see it. :-(
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77Mooney View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 77Mooney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 10:07am
We can request and hope that Avidyne and Seattle can work something out....  :) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 195pilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 11:50am
I too would be delighted if Avidyne were to offer Seattle as an alternative!  Jeppesen just isn't in tune with owner operated (and funded!) airplanes. 

In my option, this optional capability would dramatically differentiate Avidyne from the Big G.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2017 at 8:42am
I whole heartily agree!!   This would be a huge discriminator between Avidyne and the big bad G guys. 

Edited by tony - 19 Jan 2017 at 8:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2017 at 2:46pm
AGREE x Infinity!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2017 at 5:12pm

This has been discussed before:

http://www.avidynelive.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=170&KW=Seattle&title=wish-list-seattle-avionics-chart-option

It has been a subject even before the first IFD was shipped.  Steve said that Seattle didn't have everything they needed so it would have involved a big certification effort.  And as we all know the FAA is not real quick at certifying stuff.


Edited by Paul - 19 Jan 2017 at 5:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote compasst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 8:23am
Since my Jepp subscription is up for renewal, I took the opportunity to talk with Jepp about cost and choices. I conveyed that many on this forum wish for an alternative and for competition to drive down the price. I also conveyed that the Avidyne package price for IFD wasn't very clear (in the past) on their website and that some sales folks didn't seem to know about it (based on several comments on this forum). Currently, several of the Avidyne choices are scattered through the list of choices, some at the end of the window and out of site. It is difficult for me to contrast less than a couple hundred dollars for Foreflight and FlyQ full USA charts and maps (and terrain clearance with SynVis) with Jepp's hundreds of dollars for exactly the same thing. Everyone that I communicated with said that these things would be taken under advisement.

Since I don't know when/where I might be flying, I have a subscription for 'east of the Mississippi' for data and charts - costs me just shy of $1000 a year. I could go with less, but their choice of states in their packages doesn't make sense for me (in OH) and by the time I get a two-state radius, I'm so close to the $1000 price that I just go ahead with bigger coverage (GA, LA and FL are visited at least once a year, frequently for GA). And, I need en-route charts in case I need fuel, etc. I have Foreflight, but the iPad gets hot too frequently and having that happen during approach (it has) is un-nerving.

All in all, the package from Jepp makes the most sense but is also the most expensive. I suggest that readers take a moment to send a note to Jepp to let them know that Avidyne group is large enough to warrant some more consideration on price. I think that Jepp is more aligned and sensitive to the business community that can better absorb and justify expensive subscriptions. Perhaps they could carve a knitch for IFD users. 

And maybe Avidyne could add some voice and encourage a better pricing structure - and maybe a  'pick your states' package. It's like cable/satellite TV - I hate to pay for stuff that I'll never use just to get what I will use. 

I think I'll continue my dialog with Jepp by suggesting this 'pick your states' approach to cost reduction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Seubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 11:02am
Compasst, That price seems a little out of line from what I paid Jeppesen for my last update in August.
The Avidyne Integrated Bundle included Terrain, obstacles, nav data, electronic chart services for both my 540 and 440 with paper charts Full USA $1084.70 

Jack

Jack Seubert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 3:17pm
Yes, the Seattle charts work on my ASPEN Pro system, They should be able to make the changes so that they work on my Avidyne system.

Please make it so...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squeege Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 10:20pm
I just went through this with a weeks' worth of emails forth & back from "Captain" at Jepp. At their website, it clearly shows that regions are available for purchase..but, ah, no; not really. It depends on what services you want to purchase. It would be nice to have options.

Louise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2017 at 2:18pm
Count me among the legions who detest Jeppesen.  Their actual products may be fine, but their business operations are abysmal.  The entire process of selecting data products and paying for them is ridiculously non-intuitive and prone to error.  Their prices are outrageous.  Renewals are a pain to deal with; for years I have been unable to achieve a renewal online and have had to resort to calling and talking to someone on the phone.

And now, while searching my email to see if my 2017 renewal has shown up (before remembering that renewals only come via snail mail and not electronically), I find an email from a Jepp rep who has "taken over my accounts" and has found a balance due that is 230 days in arrears.

Except that I've got a credit card statement that confirms it was paid months ago!!  (Admittedly, it was late, but reference earlier comment about renewals not being simple and easy.)

I have *never* had a simple, straightforward, uncomplicated, and error-free transaction with Jeppesen in the 7 years I've been doing business with them.

But guess what?  They don't care, because they know that if I want to use my avionics, then I have to deal with them.

Ugh.  I *hate* dealing with Jeppesen.  If the phone company and cable company had a love child, and that child was raised by the government, then you'd get Jeppesen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2017 at 5:35pm
It would be really nice if you could have a stable relationship with a single account manager, rather than having to tell the tale of dysfunction over and over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2017 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by ddgates ddgates wrote:

It would be really nice if you could have a stable relationship with a single account manager, rather than having to tell the tale of dysfunction over and over.

Yes, that would be a great idea. It might be easier to educate ONE, rather than ALL of them.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2017 at 6:56pm
It would be really nice if Jeppesen could get their act together, instead of us having to work around their dysfunction.

Maybe some competition would help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote compasst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2017 at 8:13pm
Here is the list of what I have purchased for two years from Jeppesen for my single IFD 540. I arrived at this package by talking with Jeppesen and understanding that it was a specially arranged price for Avidyne IFD540 product. There is tax of $65 which started showing up last year. These items are listed as one package price of $962.50. Message posted above by Jack Seubert indicates he pays $57 more for the entire US on TWO IFDs. Hmmmm - I'll be calling Jepp Monday.

Bundled services for Avidyne - Item 10502628
NavData IFR East/Central IFD 540 -       Item 10502543
Obstacles East/Central IFD 540  Item 10502553
Terrain Worldwide IFD 540 Item 10502558
Electronic Chart Services IFD 540 Suite plus avionics   Item 10502578
Electronic Chart Services IFD 540 Eastern US.JV MFD IFR Coverage Item 10018496


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2017 at 9:02pm
The entire US bundle comes at a "discount" which makes any subset of the US at "normal price" cost hardly any less.  Thanks, Jeppesen!

Edited by MysticCobra - 21 Jan 2017 at 9:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2017 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Jack Seubert Jack Seubert wrote:

Compasst, That price seems a little out of line from what I paid Jeppesen for my last update in August.
The Avidyne Integrated Bundle included Terrain, obstacles, nav data, electronic chart services for both my 540 and 440 with paper charts Full USA $1084.70 

Jack


Jeppesen has quoted me Euro 1'540 (excl freight) for the same thing for a single IFD540 with Central Europe coverage (Central Europe IFR bundle here http://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/legal/flitepak/avidyne-ifd540/flitepak-plus-ifr.jsp. That's about $1'680, so over 50% higher than a full USA bundle.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has received something better for Europe.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2017 at 8:16pm
This is a problem Avidyne needs to solve.

Digital charges are off the map compared to other apps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2017 at 8:23pm
I don't think Avidyne has any leverage on this. I've been trying to get a Jepp quote for the Europe VFR charts (per Avidyne supported with 10.2), and have been unable. When/if it ever comes, I'm expecting it to be an additional Euro286/$310.... which brings the total up to $2'000, and from the reports here on the forum, that doesn't include the IFD100 charts.

It's all kind of silly. Avidyne is selling the boxes and Jeppesen is making the fortune.

Vince
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2017 at 10:22pm
Yikes.

The previous discussion ran to a proprietary Avidyne format, if that is true, then that is why I asserted that the ball is in Avidyne's court, vis a vis other vendors offering data.


David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mccdeuce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 1:04pm
I have the NavData from Jeppesen. Their website says it includes obstacles and terrain. Of course the website doesn't work for ordering so I called in.

I was told it is an additional $70 for obstacles and terrain but that's not updated frequently so I should t need it. This seems suspect. Can anyone advise?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 1:59pm
Obstacles are updated every 56 days. Terrain is updated seldom, once every two to three years perhaps. Terrain obviously doesn't change much, the updates include more area and/or in greater detail.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 16 May 2017 at 2:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mccdeuce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 4:56pm

Thanks Orest.

Is the Obstacles not included in the Jepp updates?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 5:25pm
You can subscribe to navdata alone, I believe. You get terrain anyway with the unit. In fact, a new IFD will come with all three, valid at the date of the last firmware update.

Obstacles is separate from Terrain, two different things.

* Orest


Edited by oskrypuch - 19 May 2017 at 4:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboPA30 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2017 at 12:11am
It is really really time to make a deal with Seattle Avionics for NAV data.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2017 at 11:29am
Yes, it is past time for us to be able to use SA for our Data, Was there a contract signed by Avidyne to ensure that Jepp was the only supplier?

GO Seattle Avionics!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote safari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2017 at 8:39pm
I disagree. I believe choices are good but I sure would hate to loose Jeppeson because it works has world wide coverage and support. I do not feel the support from SA would be as good. Just try flying to South America without Jeppeson and you will see. Also the upload times are much better than with SA. It takes so long to upload the changes to flyq where the 550 goes so quick. We all want cheap but sometimes that is not better. Do not give up a good thing for a marginal thing. I hear complaints from Garmin owners all the time about how slow the updates are. Also Jeppeson has the better data. I also like their approach charts a lot more than nos. 


Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2017 at 8:47pm
No question in my mind, Jepp is superior in terms of product. Wouldn't fly without it.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 94S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2017 at 1:59pm
I agree that Jepp has very good product, but their monopoly as a nav data provider and their prices that come with it give me heartburn.  I would much rather be able to put more avgas in my tanks with a lower priced nav data alternative.  Even if that means longer upload times.  I've got time, what I don't have is a lot of avgas $$.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2017 at 9:32pm
What, pray tell, is this unique "Jepp Product" of high quality? 

In the US at least and probably most of the First world, I'm pretty sure the only Jepp product is the unique Jepp approach plates, something I have zero interest in.  I learned with NOS plates, and I'm happy with NOS plates.  When my career took off and I could afford Jepp plates, I compared them to NOS and found no reason to switch. 

All the databases and procedure themselves are a product of the government or some government-chartered organization, and readily available, in the US at least for a nominal subscription fee. (Free in the US, actually, but that entails a little work.)  You just can't stuff them in your certified avionics, but the Tablet app providers (including Avare, which is *entirely* volunteer-developed) have no difficulty incorporating them.  The only complication I've seen is (besides non-US fees) is the actual georeferencing of approach plates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2017 at 9:52pm
AzAv8r, can you tell me where to get NOS plates for Canada, France, Germany, etc, etc?

Your view is perhaps valid if you never leave the US, but as soon as you go to any other country you'll notice that each country has its own, unique, plate structure. So even if free (which isn't the case everywhere), you need to learn a different plate format every time you cross an international border. Jepp plates all have the same presentation, regardless of where you're flying.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2017 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by chflyer chflyer wrote:

...but as soon as you go to any other country you'll notice that each country has its own, unique, plate structure. So even if free (which isn't the case everywhere), you need to learn a different plate format every time you cross an international border. Jepp plates all have the same presentation, regardless of where you're flying.


Bingo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2017 at 9:24am
When in Rome do as the Romans do?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flying_Monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 3:31am
Please forgive my ignorance. I don't understand why Nav data costs so much money.  Isn't the origination of the U.S. Nav data from the U.S. Government?  Isn't it freely accessible as raw information?  So why does it cost hundreds of dollars per year just to have the data reformatted so that a brand's box can use it?  Couldn't Avidyne simply reformat the U.S. Government's nav data for use in the IFD's?  Please someone explain to me what I am missing and why this is so complicated.  It must be much more complicated than I am imagining. I am strictly talking about nav data here and not customized approach charts like Jeppessen approach charts.  I know for units used in experimentals like the GRT avionics products the Nav Data (28 day cycles) are completely free!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 6:58am
Originally posted by Flying_Monkey Flying_Monkey wrote:

Couldn't Avidyne simply reformat the U.S. Government's nav data for use in the IFD's?  Please someone explain to me what I am missing and why this is so complicated. 


Reformatting the government data is more work than you'd think.  I had a friend who requested the government navigation "raw data" so that he could evaluate the possibilities.  He ended up having to file a FOIA request to get it, and when it arrived it came in seventeen boxes.  The raw data consists of paper records, it is not digital.  Most of those records are hand-written notes, with sketches of trees and obstacles and whatnot.

The electronic database is Jeppesen's key asset.  They have created and refined their electronic database over time, and they get the paper changes from the government at each update cycle, so they only have to change what changed.

Yes, it can be done.  But it is a complicated undertaking and the legal liabilities for taking it on are virtually unlimited.  If the database creator mis-reads some government surveyor's hand writing from 1943 then the liability is on the database creator.  If I worked in Avidyne's legal department, I would urge them not to go down that path.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 8:46am
On top of the processing, required for the US data, also remember, most every other country in the world charges big bucks just for access to the data. Avidyne needs a worldwide solution.

Even if you are just looking for "US data", there is overlap at the borders to be accounted for.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 03 Jun 2017 at 8:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AUXAIR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 1:13pm

I worked with a developer of an early version of an Electronic Pocket Navigator, and his biggest problem was collating and correcting the government "raw" navigation data.  Even though he was only accessing and displaying airports and intersections, he spent hundreds of hours each month correcting the new data, which, when updating an airport might have shifted a decimal point or transposed some numbers. 

It was not simply a matter of moving numbers from one format to another, although that was difficult enough, but "sanity checking" the data in and out.  And as David notes, this is done with potentially great liability, both personal and legal.

David E.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flying_Monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 1:21am
So where does the Nav database of something like the GRT systems come from? And how are they able to be free?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 10:30am
Originally posted by Flying_Monkey Flying_Monkey wrote:

So where does the Nav database of something like the GRT systems come from? And how are they able to be free?


I don't know where their data comes from or how they manage it, but ultimately it isn't free.  Somehow, same way, the customers or advertising sponsors are inputting enough money to keep the business solvent.

David Bunin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 5:55pm
In the US:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/

I understand we once could get the data for the Rest of the World from the US Military.   But other governments complained they were losing revenue, so that data is no longer available to the public.
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john.salak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john.salak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2017 at 10:15pm
As the US Gov is the source of most didital charts products and updates, one would think that would be a baseline standard for any equipment or system that displays avaition charts. I have to update Skyview charts, ForeFlight Charts, and IFD540 charts seperatly. I have all three linked over WiFi, so it would be nice if the Skyview and IFD540 would synch/download the chart data from ForeFlight. 

There is a reason Boeing paid $1.5 Billion for Jeppesen-Sanderson, and we pay for it with every subscription/update. GA is noise in their business model, so I see no incentive for them to change it. 

John Salak  
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khuffine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khuffine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2017 at 10:43pm
I just flew to Chester town MD. It was in the ForeFlight data base but not the ifd440. 6MD2 is the identifier. Small grass field but why not in the box?
Khuffine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2017 at 11:58pm
User option settings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA20Pacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2017 at 8:48am
Hi Khuffine-

Many private airports without instrument approaches are in the database used by Foreflight, but not in the database supplied by Jeppesen for certified GPS navigators. I am not sure whether there are runway length or other criteria for inclusion as well. This is just a personal observation, so I would welcome insight from someone who has real knowledge of this issue.

I would like to see these airports included in the Jeppesen database used by the IFD540 and other certified units.

Regards,

Bob
Bob Siegfried, II
Brookeridge Airpark (LL22)
Downers Grove, IL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2017 at 9:14am
You can add a private airport to the Jepp database fairly simply. You have to contact Jepp directly, they will query you for the relevant information, and it will get added.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khuffine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2017 at 11:31pm
I had any field in user options. Also just used foreflight with avidyne trainer as the panel mount. Much better syn vision. Worked fine.
Khuffine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2017 at 9:31am
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

You can add a private airport to the Jepp database fairly simply. You have to contact Jepp directly, they will query you for the relevant information, and it will get added.

* Orest

Additionally, you can add a user defined airport in the IFDs. IFD540 PG Section 2-48 "FMS Pages" http://www.avidyne.com/files/downloads/600-00300-001.pdf
Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahphish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2023 at 9:22am
In case someone finds this thread like I did I wanted to share this really great info I just found regarding cheaper subscriptions for Avidyne through Jeppesen. 



NavData

These are annual prices for NavData only, per aircraft. For more information on regional coverages, contact Jeppesen. 


At this time you have to call Jeppesen to get this deal, but they said they are working to add it to the online shopping portal. 


Edited by blahphish - 06 Oct 2023 at 9:23am
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