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Newbie to IFD440 - Best way to initiate approach?
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mvgossman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Jun 2018 at 12:01pm
Totally new to the IFD440 and very impressed. A quick operational question.

Normally I would fly GPS direct airport to airport with the Garmin 430W since it's not always predictable what the approach will be. So I wait until the approach is given to me, or I receive what I ask for, and then activate the approach on the Garmin 430W and request clearance to turn to the IAF and if unable then await clearance to my preferred IAF or what they require for traffic etc.

Sometimes however I fully expect what the approach will be so I will file Airport to IAF to Airport and navigate directly to the IAF to saye time.

Seems there are three way to accomplish this when you know the approach you'll want or get, with the IFDxxx after filing Airport-IAF-Airport.
1. Create a flight plan Airport to IAF to Airport and select the approach without any resulting "Gap in route" and no need to Activate the approach. This idea came to me from an IFDxxx expert CFI.
2. Create a flight plan Airport to Airport, select the approach, and activate a direct to IAF right after takeoff.
3. Create a flight plan Airport to Airport, and file as such with ATC, waste a little time navigating direct along that course, select the approach when getting close, and Activate the approach.

Am I understanding this new IFD way well? What's the best way?

Mitch
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mfb View Drop Down
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I think that you understand the process well. Any of those methods will work.

Method number 1 (file to the IAF) would create the least work for you and ATC. You just take off, go straight to the IAF, and shoot the approach. No muss, no fuss, no wasted clearances or time en-route.

Just remember that anything can happen. Be prepared for a change in approach or runway when you get closer to your destination and know how to revise the plan in your IFD.

Mike
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mvgossman View Drop Down
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Thanks, I forgot to mentioned that option 2 is not recommended because you'd not be flying as filed.
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Mitch,

Having completed the intense Gary Reeves CFII training last month, I integrated a few process changes. First, all planning is completed before ever leaving the ground. It is interesting reading your OP, as I used to do the same as you: prepare as best I could so I could accept the approach GIVEN to me, however, now I prepare all approaches, but as PIC I TELL ATC which approach I want (of course I still have all the approach plates ready for change of plans). This supports my Second (and agrees with Mike's approach): instead of flying to the airport, my route of flight is to the IAF/IF of the approach I want. In doing this, since it is already in your flight plan, you can avoid the "gap in route."
One of the pearls that I have used that is not Avidyne based: I do not check in when flying on an IFR flight plan. I receive my clearance on the ground, take off before my void time and can now concentrate on flying the clearance, just listening for ATC to call me. When they ask "N1941M?", my response is N1941M [altitude]. It greatly reduces radio clutter.

Louise
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Catani View Drop Down
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Originally posted by squeege squeege wrote:

...I do not check in when flying on an IFR flight plan. I receive my clearance on the ground, take off before my void time and can now concentrate on flying the clearance, just listening for ATC to call me. When they ask "N1941M?", my response is N1941M [altitude]. It greatly reduces radio clutter.

Louise
Louise -- I think you should establish radio contact with ATC as soon as possible.  It's not that difficult or distracting so long as you set up your frequencies before departure as you should.  If from a towered airport, they will instruct you when to contact approach, and they don't mean whenever you get around to it, it means without undue delay.  If non-towered, it's arguably even more important.  You are not receiving radar services until then, and ATC must protect a lot of airspace until it knows where you are.  One day you will wait for ATC to call and they will forget.  Or you will already be causing conflict problems when they do call and ask where you are.  The monkey is on your back, not ATC's, to report airborne and altitude climbing to.

As for the OP, if your routes are short and the winds clearly favor a particular runway orientation, you can program your flight, including your selected approach, before takeoff without much concern for having to change anything.  But for flights of several hours, winds can easily change.  To simplify things, I do the same thing every time: the last leg of the flight plan is the last enroute fix on my flight plan, ending with direct from there to the airport.  If I have a choice of enroute fixes, one of which is an IAF, I'll favor that.  Otherwise, I'll wait until within range of ATIS, get the actual info on runways, and then add the approach to the IFD when I know what approach I want from those ATC would be willing to give me.  You have plenty of time to do that if you make it a habit to get the ATIS when it first becomes audible.  There's no need to overthink or overplan, and no need to commit to something that's hours away from takeoff.
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+2, (on both) to Catani.

Edited by oskrypuch - 02 Jul 2018 at 9:24am
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squeege View Drop Down
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[/QUOTE]The monkey is on your back, not ATC's, to report airborne and altitude climbing to.

[/QUOTE]

I do not want to 7700 this thread; have the discussion with a Master CFII. Once you have your clearance, you are cleared into the system to fly your flight. You do not have to talk to anyone. Certainly have the frequencies pre-loaded and certainly listen for your call sign. It does not matter, as we all have NORDO procedures. Fly your clearance.

Louise
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Catani View Drop Down
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Originally posted by squeege squeege wrote:

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

The monkey is on your back, not ATC's, to report airborne and altitude climbing to.



I do not want to 7700 this thread; have the discussion with a Master CFII. Once you have your clearance, you are cleared into the system to fly your flight. You do not have to talk to anyone. Certainly have the frequencies pre-loaded and certainly listen for your call sign. It does not matter, as we all have NORDO procedures. Fly your clearance.

Louise
I don't mean to "7700" you whatever that means, but the opinion of a Master CFI is not immune from criticism.  I wonder if he has the same attitude when switching frequencies enroute?  AIM 5-2-6 states "Other IFR traffic for the airport where the clearance is issued is suspended until the aircraft has contacted ATC or until 30 minutes after the clearance void time..."  I think it's pretty inconsiderate to tie up all other IFR traffic to and from your departure airport more than necessary, but that's just my opinion.  I'm former USAF instructor pilot, former bizjet pilot, former airline pilot and instructor, current CFI&II, and in all my many hundreds of professional colleagues have never heard any one of them advocate radio silence on an IFR departure from an uncontrolled field. I suggest you get second opinion. There's not a one of us, your Master included, who knows it all.  So I'm not suggesting he's not an excellent instructor, just that I think he's got this one wrong, and I'll bet most pros would agree with me.

Edited by Catani - 30 Jun 2018 at 3:55pm
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squeege View Drop Down
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I'm sorry, I meant 7500, or hijack the thread.

I do not discount your knowledge or experience. Of course I questioned this, then went and searched the FARs. It has been interesting and quite pleasant concentrating on piloting during my clearance time and entering the system. My transponder is sending off my discrete code.  ATC can "see" me and speak to me when they deem it necessary. I am ready to respond with location and altitude, if they query. I base just outside of a Class B and the frequency is already congested.

Good topic for discussion.

Louise
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Catani View Drop Down
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Yes, it's a good topic.  IFR techniques and procedures are a deep source of aviation topics.  

If you can't get a word in edgewise, you wait until you can, but you didn't limit your post to that special case.  An extremely busy ATC Class B controller will fire off instructions like a non-stop machine gun, and one may be for you and hopefully you will be listening.  Trying to butt in after another pilot's acknowledgement will often block the controller's instruction to the next guy.  Fortunately, for the most part ATC's transmissions will punch through a block.  You can't do what can't be done. Wait for a lull, and expect to be called before there is one.

However, waiting for ATC to call and ask if you are on the frequency after departure from the typical non-controlled airport is improper in my opinion, and not what ATC expects. Check with your Master CFI about his advice in that general condition. 


Edited by Catani - 30 Jun 2018 at 5:56pm
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I am with Catani on this one. I don't really care what a master CFII thinks. I don't know how much time he's spent flying in the real IFR world. 

I've flown in a lot of airspace, and I would never consider not calling ATC as soon as I could. Of course you need to fly the airplane first and comply with your clearance, but those should be pre-planned and second nature to you. It doesn't take much brain power to key the mike and check in on the frequency. Waiting for ATC to call you first will just keep everybody confused.

Mike



Edited by mfb - 30 Jun 2018 at 10:56pm
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Bob H View Drop Down
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Originally posted by squeege squeege wrote:

all planning is completed before ever leaving the ground…now I prepare all approaches, but as PIC I TELL ATC which approach I want
This smacks to me of “everything has to be programmed into the box or I’m not flying.”  How did we ever find the IAF before GPS and Moving Maps?  ATC is a system that involves courtesy and cooperation.  We work together to make the system operate smoothly and efficiently.  If everyone gets to a busy destination airport telling ATC, I’m PIC, this is what I’ve programed, so this is what I want, chaos ensues.  “All Planning” does not have to mean “All Programming.”  The beauty of the IFDs is that it is trivial to enter an approach at any time during a flight.  I see no reason why it is necessary to program the approach before leaving the ground, especially when circumstances may change.
Originally posted by squeege squeege wrote:

instead of flying to the airport, my route of flight is to the IAF/IF of the approach I want. In doing this, since it is already in your flight plan, you can avoid the "gap in route."
No matter what flight plan is filed, no one flies to the airport (unless Visual).  We are cleared for the approach well before hand and the difference between that and filing to the IAF is typically insignificant.  It just doesn’t matter.  Also, “gap in route” is not an error, a problem, or something to be avoided.  It is simply information presented by the IFD.  We’ve always had gaps in routes.  It’s the "unknown approach".  There just hasn’t been a box telling us that, so it didn’t matter to anyone until now.  At some point, we’ve always had to figure out how to get to the IAF.  Nothing has changed except there is now more information available and it is simpler to get there.

Originally posted by squeege squeege wrote:

I do not check in when flying on an IFR flight plan. I receive my clearance on the ground, take off before my void time and can now concentrate on flying the clearance, just listening for ATC to call me. When they ask "N1941M?", my response is N1941M [altitude]. It greatly reduces radio clutter.
I agree with Catani.  What if everyone did this?  How does it “greatly reduce radio clutter.”?  The controller now has to query everyone if they are on frequency.  That creates extra transmissions for the controller.  The pilot still gives call sign and altitude, and the controller still gives instructions after communication is established, such as altimeter setting, etc.  No reduction at all that I can see.  Consider the controllers workload.  They need to notice if you’ve popped up on the screen, give you a moment to call, wonder if there’s an issue, and then call you.  Why is that the controllers job to determine if you’re on freq?  Isn’t that your job to get yourself efficiently into the system ASAP?
Bob
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Excellent discussion but I totally agree with Catani. I also asked a friend who is a controller in a busy Class C airspace who oversees many uncontrolled fields.  She also agrees the pilot should check in as soon as practical. 
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Originally posted by squeege squeege wrote:

It has been interesting and quite pleasant concentrating on piloting during my clearance time and entering the system. My transponder is sending off my discrete code.  ATC can "see" me and speak to me when they deem it necessary. I am ready to respond with location and altitude, if they query. I base just outside of a Class B and the frequency is already congested. 
This method may work well in your neighborhood (what part of TX do you fly in?), but I would caution you about expecting to use this method everywhere you go.  I, too, base just outside a Class B (Houston) and sometimes the freq is congested, and sometimes it's not.  Regardless, my release at uncontrolled fields typically includes the instruction to "Contact Departure on xxx.xx once airborne."

Many of my clearances also include the instruction to fly an initial heading that's not part of my pre-planned route, so I'll need vectors from ATC to get established on my enroute course.  Not calling them will only delay that transition.

So in my part of the world, being able to use your method would be the exception, not the norm.

In practice, if I'm departing an uncontrolled field, I'm making calls to take the runway and report my position as I depart the area, anyway.  One more call to establish two-way contact with ATC is not a burden.


Edited by MysticCobra - 02 Jul 2018 at 9:53am
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Just in case we didn't pile on enough, +1 to Catani on this. I routinely depart an uncontrolled field that is snug up against the HSV Class C. It's not a terribly busy airspace but it gets far more than its share of military traffic due to our proximity to the USAF and USN training facilities at Columbus and Meridian, plus test/eval helo traffic from Redstone Arsenal *and* a frightening number of NORDO folks who like to putt along below the airspace shelf and look at trees or whatever without calling ATC. You bet your sweet bippy I'm going to contact departure ASAP so I have them looking out for me.
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Please group: focus on the OP. The beauty of the Avidyne is the simplicity of programming. Look for the instructional videos (https://pilotsafetyorg.godaddysites.com/) here.

Louise
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Originally posted by squeege squeege wrote:

Please group: focus on the OP... Louise
Answered already I think.  See my post 6/30/18 at 12:41 pm, second paragraph. (Edited to correct the time thanks to MysticCobra).

Edited by Catani - 03 Jul 2018 at 3:42pm
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MysticCobra View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Answered already I think.  See my post 6/30/18 at 3:53pm, second paragraph.
You mean the 6/30 12:41pm post.

Edited by MysticCobra - 03 Jul 2018 at 10:33am
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Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Answered already I think.  See my post 6/30/18 at 3:53pm, second paragraph.
You mean the 6/30 12:41pm post.
Yes, thanks for the correction.  I fixed that post to reflect the correct time.

Edited by Catani - 03 Jul 2018 at 3:42pm
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