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What’s the reason for a GAP ? |
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Just trying to understand the reason a gap is created in a flight plan after an approach is loaded, instead of just leaving the leg to the airport ?
Gary
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Gary
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AviSteve ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2319 |
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Say you have an enroute leg to point A followed by a leg to the destination airport. You insert an approach that starts at point B. The FMS isn't sure how you want to get from A to B, so it inserts a gap before B. If it's OK to go direct, then you just have to close the gap.
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Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering |
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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thanks Steve
I understand what to do, but I don’t understand why it doesn’t leave the next leg going to the destination airport. If heading to a fix before your destination and the controller says expect the RNAV 23 approach you can’t load the approach until passing the fix and on the leg to the airport. If you do load the approach you must either activate it or clear the gap. So now your heading for some other fix and not the airport even though your not yet cleared for the approach or cleared to the fix. |
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Gary
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Bob
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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thanks Bob
Appreciate the help. What I don’t understand is when I’m NOT cleared for the approach and I’ve past the fix and supposed to be heading for the airport. If I leave the gap the airplane doesn’t know where to go. If I clear the gap the airplane is heading for the approach fix and not the airport.
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Gary
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AviSteve ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2319 |
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The mission of the FMS is to fly the sequence of waypoints that is entered into the flight plan. As long as the flight plan is an accurate representation of your clearance, everything should work out just fine. The problem here is that when an expected clearance is entered, the flight plan no longer represents your actual clearance. But that's where the gap comes to the rescue. Remember the purpose of the gap is to tell you that the FMS doesn't know how you want to get from the waypoint before the gap to the waypoint after the gap. If you receive clearance for the approach before you have reached the last enroute waypoint, then you can just close the gap and the FMS will happily sequence onto the approach with no further action from you. Or, if your clearance is direct to the IAF, you would just do -D->. But, if you are getting close to the last enroute waypoint and haven't yet been cleared for the approach, then your clearance is still to the airport. In that case, just enter a leg to the airport immediately prior to the gap and the flight plan is again representative of your clearance. Then, when you're cleared to start the approach, you would just -D-> the IAF or whatever you're instructed to do to start the approach.
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Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering |
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dmtidler ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 630 |
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As you identified, the IFD appears to handle the gap creation a couple of different ways depending on whether the airport you wish to load the approach for is the active waypoint or not. If the airport you wish to load the approach for is the active waypoint, then loading the approach will retain the airport as your active waypoint and the approach as well as a second instance of that airport in the approach will load after a gap placed after the active waypoint. If the approach you wish to load is at an airport in your flight plan but not the active waypoint, when the approach loads, the approach will use the flight plan airport waypoint in the approach and a gap will be created after the last waypoint that originally preceded the airport waypoint. In this case, the result is only one instance of that airport in the IFD flight plan. There are a several techniques I have come up with to handle this; the last one in particular may be easier than the technique you mentioned: 1) If the last leg to the airport you wish to load the approach for is lengthy and time management permits, wait until it is the active waypoint before loading the desired approach. 2) If you wish to load the approach and know you will get an alternate clearance or vectors before the airport leg becomes active, load the approach and leave the gap as is. While this technique is perfectly usable, I personally do not like having the IFD flight plan differ from my ATC cleared routing and try to keep gaps in the IFD flight plan in the appropriate place to indicate ATC clearance limits. 3) If you wish to load the expected approach prior to the airport becoming the active fix as well as retain the leg to the airport; load the approach then insert a second instance of the airport waypoint immediately before the gap that was created when the approach loaded. The resulting flight plan will look quite similar to the way the IFD handles adding the approach when the airport is the active waypoint resulting in two instances of the airport in the flight plan; one just prior to the gap and one in the approach. This technique results in the gap being properly placed at the ATC clearance limit. Edited by dmtidler - 25 Apr 2020 at 10:21am |
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Bob
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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thanks for the detailed responses.
Looks like putting the airport in before the gap will work best most of the time. I realize this doesn’t happen very often, I just don’t see why the IFD would need to act different when entering an approach if your leg is a fix before the airport then it does when your leg is to the airport.
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Gary
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AviSteve ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2319 |
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The reason for the difference is that when the leg to the airport is active, we don't want to interrupt that guidance. So, we put the approach, including the destination and the missed approach, after the active leg.
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Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering |
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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thanks Steve
That’s exactly what I was trying to understand. That said, I agree not to interrupt guidance to the airport if your heading to it, but I don’t agree with the logic to interrupt the guidance to the airport just because it’s after a fix. NOT THAT ANY OF THIS IS THAT BIG A DEAL. APPRECIATE YOUR HELP STEVE.
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Gary
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Bob
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Cruiser ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 24 Feb 2017 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 139 |
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IF the navigator is programmed to go direct to the airport, and the approach is entered to that same airport at what point (along the route to the airport) does the navigator decide to change course and proceed to the IAF ?
How does the navigator know which IAF to proceed to ? What if ATC issues vectors to an IF ? all good reasons for a /gap/ |
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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all good points, but if your original routing is “ Direct xyz then Direct Airport expect RNAV 23 “ your Clearence hasn’t changed. Your still supposed to be direct to the airport after xyz. Therefore The gap has changed your routing and your Clearence has not changed.
Good discussion.
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Gary
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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In this case, your clearance has indeed changed. You’ve been told to expect routing to the destination airport via RNAV 23. You won’t actually expect to get to the destination airport before commencing the approach. There’s a good chance, you won’t even fly any portion of that last destination leg before commencing the approach. The IFD doesn’t know anything about what has changed (or not) in your clearance, especially that you think your “Clearance hasn’t changed”. It’s not a mind reader. It only knows what you tell it. If you re-program it that you will now proceed via RNAV 23 to the destination airport, there is nothing else it knows about your routing and it is dangerous for it to assume additional information that you haven’t actually given it. If you think that you will need to fly a portion of the last FP leg to the destination airport, then you need to finish re-programming it and insert the airport before the beginning of the RNAV 23 approach. The IFD should NEVER insert waypoints that you haven’t explicitly given it. The “Gap” is the method by which the IFD lets you know that programming is not yet finished. Edit: I should also mention, that if the IFD behaved as you'd like, there would be more Gaps created, not less. There would be discontinuities from the airport to the IAF.
Edited by Bob H - 25 Apr 2020 at 12:28pm |
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Bob
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dmtidler ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 630 |
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I disagree; "expect RNAV 23" as used above is not a clearance and does not change any previously assigned altitude, speed, or routing clearance. It is purely informational for the pilot's planning purposes and lets the pilot have a general idea of what to expect and plan for when the time comes that ATC actually issues a further clearance. As far as whether a pilot will fly at least part of the final airport leg or not, that depends on a myriad of factors; length of that leg from previous waypoint, direction of airport leg versus approach direction, local airspace and ATC procedures, etc. Local knowledge of these will factors will certainly aid the pilot in deciding whether the dropped airport leg should be inserted into the flight plan or use an alternate technique to handle that potential routing.
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Bob
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teeth6 ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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When I first got the IFDs, I wondered about the gap also but the more I thought about it and used it, the more sense it made and realized I had to stop thinking like a G***** pilot after my years on the 430s.
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dmtidler ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 630 |
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The gap concept is very similar to the route discontinuity concept found in the Honeywell, Smith Industries, and Thales FMCs found in Boeing and Airbus airliners.
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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thanks Bob
My point exactly. Your Clearence hasn’t changed therefore your routing shouldn’t change until you get vectors for the approach or some other instructions that could happen after xyz fix.
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Gary
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oskrypuch ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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+1 * Orest
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Bob
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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[/QUOTE]Then don't re-program the IFD with the approach until you've actually received a new clearance for the approach. Kind of defeats the purpose of the controller giving you an expected approach. Just trying to stay ahead of the airplane.
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Gary
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Catani ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21 Jan 2016 Status: Offline Points: 362 |
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Staying ahead of the airplane is what this is all about. At the beginning of a flight, my last enroute fix is just before the destination airport in the flight plan. Before starting my descent, I've briefed an approach I expect to get and loaded it into the IFD. Often, that creates a Gap if the approach starts at a fix not in my route. Not a problem, it's to deal with later. I've also reviewed some other approaches I might get, so that I won't be behind things if I don't get the approach I expect. As I get closer, I usually am told to expect the approach I planned for, so I change nothing. But if I get a different one to expect, I delete the first one and replace it with the new one. All this is done to reduce workload when I get the actual clearance for the approach, when things get a little busier. If that clearance is for the approach I've loaded, I delete the Gap if there is one, proceed to whatever fix I've been cleared to, and fly the approach. At no time do I consider that I need an approach clearance in order to load an approach into the IFD. I don't even need a controller to tell me what to expect. I load it myself after reviewing the METAR and surmising which approach I'd prefer. And if the controller says to expect some other approach I don't like, I'll ask for the approach I prefer. That doesn't happen often, but when it does, ATC will often accommodate.
Edited by Catani - 26 Apr 2020 at 12:44pm |
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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As dmtidler nicely stated:
The bottom line for me is: 1. Entering the approach in the IFD is indicating that I expect a new clearance on how to get to the airport other than how I am currently cleared. For me, that expectation includes a decision about flying the last enroute leg to the airport. 2. There’s a good chance, I won’t fly any portion of that last leg to the airport, so I don’t want the IFD to always assume that I will. 3. If the last leg to the airport is always retained, there will be many more circumstances of Gaps that need to be closed - discontinuity between the airport and IAF. 4. I think Avidyne has hit the right architecture balance with the way they handle adding an expected approach and the use of Gaps. 5. I talk too much, analyze things to death, and make points that are not always germane to the point, and thereby just obfuscate the issue! Others have made the point better, especially Steve. I guess this simply comes down to personal preference of one model vs. another.
Edited by Bob H - 26 Apr 2020 at 6:35pm |
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Bob
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GaryB ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Nice. Got me there. Bob Quote=The bottom line for me is: 1. Entering the approach in the IFD is indicating that I expect a new clearance on how to get to the airport other than how I am currently cleared. For me, that expectation includes a decision about flying the last enroute leg to the airport. Very good explanation. I can understand where your coming from now. Not totally onboard but makes sense. Bob Quote=5. I talk too much, analyze things to death, and make points that are not always germane to the point, and thereby just obfuscate the issue! No worries Bob. Keeps things interesting. We’re all here to learn.
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Gary
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Bob
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dmtidler ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 630 |
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I personally don’t see a need to close flight plan gaps unless cleared via a continuous waypoint to waypoint routing onto the approach or approach transition. In other words, if I am going to be vectored onto the approach or given present position direct-to routing to a waypoint on the approach side of the gap, there is no need to close the gap. In the case of a Vectors selected approach (I view the IFD Vectors to final as a unique type of flight plan gap), the Vectors to final type gap cannot be closed. Using Activate VTF or using either Activate Leg or direct-to with a waypoint on the approach side of the gap while being vectored or having been given a direct-to clearance all sequence the IFD flight plan and active waypoint to the approach side of the gap. This happens regardless of how many waypoints were remaining to fly over prior to the gap. My long winded point is that there shouldn’t be any increase in the number of gaps that need to be closed by choosing to retain the airport fix or not prior to the gap; I believe the number of gaps that need to be closed will remain the same.
Edited by dmtidler - 30 Apr 2020 at 10:29am |
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dmtidler ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 630 |
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I my above post I failed to mention the Activate Approach FMS hook as another method to cross or modify flight plan discontinuities. I tended to not use this FMS hook because I didn't have clear understanding of how it exactly works and had witnessed different behaviors at different times. One of the things I really like about the IFD is that many times there are multiple paths to achieving the desired results so I had never forced myself to learn the nuances of the Activate Approach. I did some testing of the Activate Approach FMS hook on the IFD simulator and have found that it appears to work three different ways depending on the discontinuity (Gap in route or Vectors to final) and if the active waypoint just prior to the discontinuity is the airport the approach is based on or not. The Activate Approach FMS hook appears to only be available if the IFD active waypoint is the flight plan waypoint immediately preceding a discontinuity before an approach. 1) If a VTF approach has been loaded, Activate Approach works identical to either selecting Activate VTF or selecting Activate Leg to the waypoint just after the Vectors to final discontinuity. All three of these methods set the FAF as the active waypoint and the course to the inbound leg of the FAF as determined by the IFD. As described earlier, the Vectors to final type discontinuity is always retained in the flight plan. This is IFD behavior is well described in the IFD PG. 2) If a non-VTF approach has been loaded, there is a discontinuity before the approach, and the IFD active waypoint immediately before the discontinuity is the airport for the approach; Activate Approach performs a direct-to the first waypoint of the approach after the discontinuity. The discontinuity is retained in the flight plan. 3) If a non-VTF approach has been loaded, there is a discontinuity before the
approach, and the IFD active waypoint immediately before the discontinuity is not the
airport for the approach; Activate Approach closes the discontinuity by connecting the active waypoint and the first waypoint of the selected approach. The flight plan discontinuity disappears in this instance. I could not find any reference to the non-VTF Activate Approach behaviors addressed in the IFD PG. |
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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My reasoning behind more gaps is: IAFs that are part of a route in the IFD will not have a gap before the approach. However, if the airport always comes before the approach, that advantage is lost. I'm not aware of airports having routes or transitions to IAFs for their approaches. I like the way the IFD currently handles approaches and the use of gaps, so I was putting forth an additional argument for the current structure if the concern is that gaps MUST be closed.
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Bob
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dmtidler ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 630 |
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Exactly...I too like the way the IFD handles approaches and the use of gaps.
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Ibraham ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21 May 2016 Location: KHWO Status: Offline Points: 363 |
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Great video from Gary Reeves about the GAP
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Bob H ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 2018 Location: NH - KMHT Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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EDIT: I loved Gary's comment about Garbage In --->> Garbage Out. The point being that we can program the IFD to avoid Gaps 90% of the time. With programmable Nav systems, we now have to think differently about how we file our flight plans and therefore how we program the box. Edited by Bob H - 07 May 2020 at 3:14pm |
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Bob
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